EPISODE 3: Yoga vs. Commercialization: Can We Reclaim It? with SUSANNA BARKATAKI transcript

Harpinder Mann
So we'll jump right into it. And the first question I've been asking all the excellent people I've been interviewing and Susanna, you are one of those people is: What does yoga mean to you?

Susanna Barkataki
To me, yoga is a liberation practice. It's a practice of personal and collective liberation. And that's connected to it being like this whole complex system, of which there are many paths. You know, there wasn't just one path to liberation. There were so many different paths. But overall, the codification of yoga is like, how to get free, you know… how can I get free within myself, from anger, from suffering, from a sense of a separated self? And free—I often also think about free from and free for, right? So free from the separations, but free for interconnection, for community, for collective uplift. And yoga is all of that.

Harpinder Mann
That's so beautiful. Yeah, because I also often like to think about yoga as being a liberation practice and it's not just for me, it's also for those around me and for my community. Something I was writing about today is the spiritual bypassing that can happen, where I oftentimes find in spiritual bypassing, it's a focus on just like me, myself, I'm doing fine, so no one else matters. And what I love about what you're sharing is, it's that interconnectedness that's so important. How does that interconnectedness show up for you in your practice and in your life?

Susanna Barkataki
I mean, honestly, for me, I felt so disconnected, like so separated from myself and from my community and from my family. And that it's just… it's like now, the yoga that I practice,it  both is a vehicle for what helped me feel reconnected, but also the way that  I consistently read that—the conditions for reconnection—if that makes sense. So I'll just give like a specific example, because that sounds very abstract, but like in terms of separation from my body, right, like if I'm feeling stress or tension or pain somewhere in my body, it's like I can bypass it, you know, and keep working or keep pushing on or whatever. Or I can slow down and pay attention and then connect. And then what yoga, asana particularly, allows me to do is care for and tend, you know, like the aching neck or the hurting back or, you know, whatever it might be. And so, it really is… the interconnection comes in slowing down and showing up to my practice. But because of having a consistent practice, like daily, you know, more or less asana… of course, there's some days that asana doesn't happen. But also, it's like everything in my life I look at through the lens of yogic philosophy, say, or yoga practice. So in being with my kiddo or solving a problem, like if—for example, another one, like an email doesn't go out, right? And it's like someone on my team didn't send that email or something malfunctioned and someone else is responsible for that. I can show up to that situation with a sense of anger, frustration, blame. But the problem is just a problem, right? And they're a person trying to do their job and like has other concerns in life. And so if I show up to that situation from a yoga perspective of like, we're connected here, we're all working for the same end of, you know, things flowing, then it's like, well, this happened, how do we solve it? Not, you know, creating more, more disruption. And those are very like, kind of everyday examples, but that for me is the interconnection is like moment to moment to moment.

Harpinder Mann
I love that everyday example because I feel so often in this modern yoga or postural yoga space where it's just like I go on my mat for 60 minutes, I do my practice and now my yoga is complete. And what I love in this everyday example is it's moving from that “me” to “we.” It's also moving in a way, we're causing less harm, we're causing less harm to ourselves, to those around us, and finding a way to be with ourselves in a more compassionate way. And I… when I think about yoga, I think about, it's really that increasing that like self-knowledge and also knowing like what bothers us, what triggers us, and being able to minimize those things and respond in a more gentle, compassionate, and just aware—in a more awareful way as well.

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah, I think a lot about how like yoga is not something you attend. It's a way of life, right, or something you live. And it doesn't just happen at the studio or when we put a class on YouTube or something, it can continue through through everything. But in the West, that understanding of what yoga is has been boxed up into little things like studio packages or clothing or apparel, things that can be bought and sold in exchanged. And it really isn't… that isn't what yoga is. 

Harpinder Mann
Mmm, that leads me into the next question that I had, is like, what's normalized in modern yoga or postural yoga that causes harm?

Susanna Barkataki
I mean so many things! [Laughing] So many things! I feel like it's interlocking systems of—that are normalized, that normalize oppressions, and I would say it's Western yoga. And I also think it's more and more happening in India as well in terms of like ethno-nationalism and caste oppression, like it's not that yoga itself is immune to these systems. And so I'll talk about the West, we can talk about you know India as well, but I would say there's other folks who are probably more expert in that than I am because I've grown up in the West and the very first yoga class, you know, quote unquote, that I went to, it was like all the norms: thin, able-bodied, telling students what to do with their body without giving them agency or choice, pushing folks into poses, physical adjustments without consent, like on and on and on, saying things like, you know, “One day you'll be able to get your leg behind your head” or, you know, “Keep going, tough it up,” you know, “tough it out.” There's so much that's normalized and the things that I'm sharing, you know, maybe you've heard them or other folks have heard them. It's like those over time create a context that becomes the culture of a practice or an institution like yoga. And those are not actually connected to what yoga is or what its basic tenets and philosophies are. So I would if we were to name it or label it, I would definitely say patriarchy, gender normativity, like gender norms, and white supremacy, like centering of what is considered to be a norm. And so these are the— heteronormativity too. I mean, we could keep… ableism, right? We could keep going and name many of the things that show up in heneral kind of culture in the US or Europe or wherever we are in the West today, it would be like those same norms show up in yoga stations, but somehow, I don't know if you see this, Harpinder, I feel like they're amplified. Like, if I just was to go to, I don't know, like, like a cooking class, I don't know that I would feel there was this amplification of these things. Maybe, you know, but they really do seem… something about the context of yoga in the West is like, it's like… we took all of these wonderful… like, this wonderful process and practice that yoga is, and then said, like, “Let's throw it into this mixture of colonialism and capitalism” and like became a monster, really. It's really hard. And I hear from a lot of people, I'm curious if you've had this too, like particularly my family or friends who are South Asian or other folks of color, you know, or elders, like, “I don't belong in yoga.” And these are South Asian folks, right? Like from whom yoga has come! And so when you hear people who have practices come from, say, “I can't go to yoga class,” we know something has gone terribly wrong.

Harpinder Mann
Mmmm. And that was the start of my experience, where I was an undergrad at UCLA and I had spent all of my life thinking, “Okay, I go to college, I've made it. Like I have to get into a good school. That's like the beginning of my life.” And I had a hard childhood and a lot of different things where it really felt like college is gonna be the answer, the escape. I get to college and I'm like, I'm here now. I'm like, I still don't feel good. I still feel even more lost and confused. There's something in me that was just like, okay, yoga... Yoga is supposed to help people feel better. It's supposed to provide answers. I started going to studios in Westwood, and it was just all white folks, able-bodied, in matching workout sets, like, looked very “perfect.” I was walking, I'm like, “What does this have to do with yoga? It's just like a coordinated dance routine everybody is doing that no one really wants to teach it to me.” And I was like, huh, this… I don't feel like I belong. I don't feel like I'm welcomed in. Like, no one's like, “Hi, what's your name?” And it wasn't until I went to India the next year, or the year after working with a company, I was going to the Ananda Sangha, and I felt that sense of like, oh, this is yoga, there's a sense of belonging. And I think that's something a lot of people experience, where you go into these spaces, and it's just like, what does this have to do with yoga? And I think also just that like… our hierarchy that's created with the teachers like at the front, they're commanding the power, no one else can really say anything. There's not really like—and something I intentionally started with my classes is letting everybody have a chance to speak like, how's everybody doing? How's your day? Maybe you talk in small groups, maybe there's a question that's posed, and then we kind of move into that practice. But it is interesting, just interesting, but also just terrible, the way that this practice has been stripped of its original goals and intents. And it’s just really about, how do we focus on our physical body and get ourselves to be perfectionist in every other part of our life, but also in this space as well? And I was like, this practice was never about perfection. It was never about comparison with one another. And I think there's a reason we're doing this work and we're having these conversations because it bothers us.

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry you had that experience. [Laughs] Of just like… Ugh! Right? Because what's powerful to me—because I, similar to you, like had a hard childhood, didn't feel like I belonged, was very disconnected and went to yoga. I was lucky in that I had one of those, like, you know how there can be like that wonderful YMCA teacher, or like the teacher that's just very unassuming? I don't even remember what identity they were, right? Like I just remember the feeling of being in their class and their class is so permission-giving and supportive. And I was in Balasana, in Child's Pose on the earth, and just like tears started falling because it's like, oh, I can find a way home. Like, I can feel connected to myself. And part of it is through this practice. And so it is like, despite everything that the West and all of these isms do to it, the power of yoga persists. We feel it and we can access it. And I think particularly for folks, it's from our heritage, right? It's from like… we may feel—I do wanna kind of acknowledge colonialism and how much it can disconnect us. So some folks may not feel a connection, but it is absolutely your right to choose to create it if you don't feel it, and cultivate it. But—but it's there, right, and it's very, very powerful.

Harpinder Mann
Some—a comment that I've come up across a couple of times, and it's been interesting, this is really only I've heard it from white women, although I could see it being in the narrative for other folks as well, is, “Well, at least we're getting them to the mat and they're moving their bodies and they're like connecting to their bodies for the first time. Like, isn't that what matters?” And I mean, I think that's a bypassing in that in itself, where you're not taking the time to understand why the person perhaps expressing their concerns is saying that you're like, “Well, I'm just shutting it down. Isn't it just isn't this fine?” What would you have to say to… for folks that have that narrative in their mind?

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah. Hmm. So much of my answer to that, it honestly does depend on context. And I'll say why, because I do think that there is a benefit to people opening up or getting in the door to doing… to practicing yoga, if it's through asana or even fitness, because they might go deeper. And, I think every professional, any teacher who's utilizing yoga as part of what they're sharing, including fitness professionals, like I think of all the—I used to love doing Zumba and even before Zumba, it was like aerobics and kickboxing and stuff. And the end of class, the last 10-15 minutes that the teacher was doing a cool down, which hopefully they were, was basically yoga. You know, but they didn't say, “We're going to do some yoga-inspired stretching or we're going to do some yoga or we're going to…” you know, they just said, “OK,” and they would tell us what to do. But I think every person in that position of power should say, should acknowledge, you know, “We're doing something inspired by yoga” or “We're going to do yoga, a practice that comes from India. That's a full, complex system. You can learn more by, you know, whatever. Like I'm going to teach you just the physical, some physical practices for this reason. But if you want to learn more, you know, there's plenty of resources” or something. So the person taking the class understands they're getting a small, small, small part of a much bigger thing. Kind of like, you know, like I'm just thinking of, like in medicine, for example, like we wouldn't go to, I don't know, like a neurologist for a broken bone. It's like, we need to be better at explaining the scope of our practice and the limitations of what we're teaching and then letting folks know that there's a whole other branch of medicine, essentially, right? Because that's what it is, is like a whole system of health and well-being and healing and liberation. So that, for me, is important. So that's the first part. It's like, I think I would say, qualify what you're doing and then people in another direction, because I do I think it's a both/and. 

And then the other side is, like, do you realize the harm that you’re causing? By cutting off one… it’s cultural appropriating, you’re undervaluing culture, its traditions, rituals, its practices by not bringing that in and by not adjusting or pairing it with hip-hop in order to make it more popular and “get people on the mat.” Like, OK, like you can say… I don't actually love the idea of pairing yoga with any kind of trendy or whatever popular thing. I don't think it needs it. I think it's enough as it is. But if you're going to do that, then at least say, like, “I am doing this and yoga is all these other things,” but also acknowledge the harm, right, and address that. Yeah, I'm curious what you think on that one, because it's tough. It's almost like people get very possessive. They feel like we're trying to take yoga away from them. And we're not, at least I'm not necessarily trying to take it away from you. I'm just saying like acknowledge. And acknowledge the harm, acknowledge the rest of the practice so people get access to that.

Harpinder Mann
Yeah, I really appreciate that answer. Because as you were talking, what was coming up for me is as yoga teachers, we have responsibility. And I also think about what one of my teachers has shared is, we can only take students as far as we have gone. So if we move on to the shallow side of the pool, that's where we're taking our students. We're all standing on the shallow side just hanging out. And oftentimes, maybe like a student only needs to go into the shallow side, but you as a teacher, at least the hope is that you really continue your practice and you've kind of gone into the depth of this pool and really understood like what more there is to yoga and to yourself. And I think when teachers say, “Well, at least they're connecting to their body, at least they're coming onto their mat!” I think it's the teacher's responsibility to say, Okay, yes, that's a huge benefit. I absolutely agree. And like you're saying, we're not trying to say take away this practice, you can't practice asana anymore. Please, I can't stop people from practicing asana, nor do I want to stop them. But what we're saying is like also acknowledge that there's more, that there's more here, there's more to the depth of practice. But I do find that people… some aren't even wanting to, aren't even willing to listen, aren't wanting to understand and have their—their blocks up, their blinders on, and that does infuriate me. I've had to come back to my own places of equanimity around these things and knowing that I can't impact and make the change that I can and then beyond that, it's not really within my control. But I think there's more responsibility that yoga teachers have to take on and knowing what yoga actually is and it's not just an exercise.

Susanna Barkataki
Absolutely. And I want to, if it's okay, I want to add in like some complexity here, right? Because when it's someone who's from, you know, the normative, like embodying a body of or positionality of privilege. So in the West, that would be white folks. It's very different to me than when, say, a Black person says the same thing. And I do think that white folks have more responsibility to look at their positionality and their privilege and to examine where they might be appropriating or taking up space or doing something to a wisdom tradition that doesn't come from their culture. And really consider not doing that, right, like making that change. And then when it's folks of color and, in particular, Black folks, I think it becomes more complex. And that's one of the details that we often don't sort out because it is messy. It's complex in part because, at least in the United States, Black folks were unseated from their sense of like place, time, sovereignty, language, culture. And so, as a South Asian person, I don't really think it's my place to be like, “I'm going to unseat you from your place of sovereignty within yoga,” right? And so there's complexity there also because of positionality and power and, same with Indigenous folks. And so there's differences of opinion on this. I think there's some South Asians who feel really strongly, like, no matter what, no matter what background, no matter where you come from, like you shouldn't be doing yoga and whatever. And then there's folks who more take a perspective, I think, like mine, that's like, there's nuance. So let's sit, let's address it, you know, let's talk about it. And what I’ve found is when I'm able to just sit and like hold that tension with someone, that they're more likely, they're not necessarily going to change what they do, but they're more likely to include in conversations around respecting culture and cultural appropriation and caring for the Indian roots or just the South Asian roots of yoga. So that's been really heartening, I think, is to sit in that complexity. And I think that's just an ongoing choice that particularly as South Asians, right, it's like we have to also acknowledge, yes, this practice has been taken and oppressed and colonized but also it's been used to colonize and it's been used to oppress and it still is even today. And so we also have to address those things as… we're not—I guess, to simplify it, we're not only the victim. But we also can be, and yoga can be, used in a position of oppression too.

Harpinder Mann
Yeah, I've talked about this in my book and with other folks I've interviewed where no matter the identity that we hold, we've all been brought up in these systems of oppression. And whether we know it or not, conscious or unconscious, we've internalized a lot of these things. Internalized colonizer, internalized ways of being, of harm. And so I think yoga provides this pathway of inquiry to start to recognize and see in ways that we harm ourselves, harm others, no matter our identity. And I think it's also on us as like yoga teachers to also see where we have the possibility of causing harm. And it's not just like, “Well, I am of South Asian descent, so that means like I can do whatever I want with this practice.” No, it just means that maybe I come from a place of deeper understanding and maybe I also feel more angry and that allows for me to speak out on these things, but doesn't mean I just speak out in a way to cause harm either. And so I think there are definitely nuances here, but also where yoga provides that pathway for deeper inquiry, to sit with our own places of where we hold privilege, where we can cause harm. And I think that is a place of deeper reflection as well. If we are thinking about Black folks and Indigenous folks and maybe not really focusing these conversations towards them and instead towards folks that hold these positions of power and having them really deeply understand. And I can agree with that point for sure. 

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah. Yeah. And I do think actually, what in the work that I've done, I've seen a lot of folks of color who aren't South Asian be like, “But I want to be, I want to be learning and I want to be held more accountable. I just don't know how to not harm,” you know, and so I will also feel like… just again, this is my experience, right, from the people I work with, so it's a limited, limited, like set or a demographic set, but that there is a lot of desire to actually learn and be more honoring, particularly from folks of color. And I would love if that were true for the kind of normative white—I try not to say dominant anymore, because we actually are the majority, right—but the normative, Western white yoga space, like I wish there was more desire like that. And it is really hard. And I also want to acknowledge, I mean, I don't know if this like… any time we're talking about these conversations, I think it can be so heartbreaking for folks. It can be so like… like the sadness and the grief of what we've lost and what the potential for connecting to ourselves and our own ancestries and, like, that's been taken is so sad. It's like—it's beyond, it's not sad, it's not the right word I don't… it's like tragic and so—and angry, right? Like there's a lot of folks who are very very angry and so just normalizing that and holding space for that. And that's the other piece when someone's like “Oh I do yoga and X, you know, and I'm just going to do it.” It's like, well, “OK, and then I invite you to hold space for our anger and our grief and our horror at what you're doing to like what… what we know, because that's a choice. And if you're going to choose to do that, we also get the space to express how we feel about it.”

Harpinder Mann
Yeah, I love that reflection because it does speak to there's consequences to actions. And if that's the action that you're going to choose, then other folks also have their right to respond in a way that's honoring for them as well, because we don't exist in a vacuum. Like, it's not just me doing whatever I want. That's not going to affect someone else. And that's the reality of the world that we live in, what I find, yoga helps us to understand how to be in better relationships. And I think that's a really key point that you're making there as well. Something that I found, have found interesting the last couple of years is all of the private clients that I've reached out to me have been folks of color, BIPOC. And the majority of them are like, “I want to do a better job in honoring yoga, learning more about it. I've been practicing asana for years, and all of a sudden I realized, wait, there's more?” And it's interesting to note that there have been no white folks. And I mean, I also know in the way that I teach and who I want to focus on, and maybe it's my languaging and the way that I present myself, but that is very interesting to note in that as well. And I also think about dismantling cultural appropriation workshops that I led and majority white folks in that space and the discomfort that I felt in like having to be like, this is my pain. This is the harm I see. Can you see it? Do you understand it? And oftentimes, by the time we got to the end of it, I could very clearly see for some of them, it had just went right over their head. 

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah.

Harpinder Mann
And I was just like… and after a point I just started laughing. Like, I'm like, I can at this point, I'm just like, it's just going to be a humorous thing to me because I can't… being angry all the time—

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah.

Harpinder Mann
—that just, that just can't work either. Although I think the anger is good though. And I have experienced having folks be like, “Oh, you're too angry about that. Like, just be peaceful or calm.” And it's like, we have a right to our anger!

Susanna Barkataki
We do. 

Harpinder Mann
Like, let's not also censor folks for having their reactions to these very real things that can cause harm. So, just bringing light to all of those things. The next question that I had for you, and this is very much in line with what we've been talking about: How does capitalism and commercialism show up in yoga? And how have people over the years appropriated it to turn it into a product that we can just sell and use and exploit?

Susanna Barkataki
Mmmm. I think about how, and again, I'm speaking from a context in the U.S. because that's what I know and where I live and am situated now. When yoga came over, you know, in whatever it was 1896 or 7, and it was taught… it was a little bit on the East Coast, right, the Parliament of World Religions. But then Paramahansa Yogananda moved over to the West Coast and taught, actually, not far from where we are, in Hollywood and, you know, Santa Monica, that area. And I do think that's had a lot to do with the way that yoga took off in the West in connection with capitalism and commercialism, because it was a lot of folks in the movie industry and then also models, actors, actresses, who were initially kind of part of that whole set. You know, very like image-conscious, very body-conscious, very, and by conscious I mean just like self-conscious about, right? And so all of those things were like this perfect storm of these wisdom teachings connecting here, but those people had the money and they had the resources and they also were more like “liberal thinking” enough to be able to learn from a Brown man who at that time wasn't even allowed to immigrate into the country, right? Like because of laws on the books, like that, you know… during a time when Jim Crow was in place. So where you would have had to drink at like the “colored” drinking fountains and use the “colored” restrooms, you know. And so there's a lot that went into that first merging of capitalism and yoga, as well as in India under the British, yogis were demoted, like kind of put down in status. Like, where in many for thousands of years, or at least… yeah, I think it was—it was probably from around like, somewhere around 500, maybe earlier BCE, to when the British came, there was a relationship between renunciate or sadhu or sannyasin practitioners, yogic practitioners, who wouldn't have all called themselves yogis, right? They may have had different names, but there was a relationship between them and their communities. And their communities understood that their practice, even if it was one of personal liberation, was going to benefit the community. And many of them would teach, right? So they would come and teach in the community. And so there was no money exchanged. It was like, “Here, you know, we'll bring you breakfast and lunch”—often they would skip dinner—“give you a place if you want a place, if they weren't like a wandering ascetic. But there was there was relational exchange. And that respect was… went down, down, down, down, in part because of Christianity, right, and the dominant religion thinking that it was superior and that anything else was inferior, in part because early on, before the British Raj, but just in the British East India Company…. because the first—folks may not know, but it was like economic control first of India by the British. During that time, there were many yogis in central India and Bihar region who basically said, “We're going to throw wrenches in the mechanics of the empire and stop the trade routes, stop exploitation.” And so because of that, there became across the British… you know, the first, the business owners, but then later also the political leaders, this thing of like, “Watch out for the yogis. They have powers, right? They have powers, and they're interrupting, and they're disrupting what we're doing.” And so there became this designation that a yoga practitioner, a sadhu, was low, was like an untouchable, was… which again is a very problematic designation of someone outside the caste system or who is at the lowest part of the caste system. And that went into both the Indian imagination as well as the Western imagination that a yoga practitioner was not of value and not to be energetically exchanged with. And so all of that context is how when yoga came to the West, there was this like, it is, you know, different. It is almost like, like a circus show, right? You can see some of the early, the early… iconography that we have from yoga practitioners in… I think it was in Chicago and other places on the East Coast, they treated yoga practitioners like freaks, like freaks of nature, and to be exploited, right? Because when you dehumanize someone or something, it's easier to take advantage of it. So that is all the context for capitalism and commercialism. And I went way back because I think it's no surprise that now, you know, the biggest earners in yoga by far are the yoga clothing, and clothing and props and that's those companies. They are not owned by Indian folks, South Asian folks. And they make billions and billions of dollars on a practice that is not theirs. So it shows up there. And then, you know, it's tricky because like with folks like you or me, right? Like if I teach a private yoga session, I'm going to charge for it. If I teach a teacher training or a workshop, I'm going to charge for it. But I just want to kind of emphasize, like, we're not the issue, right? Like, we're working within the structure that we're in, which is late-stage capitalism. And so we're having some form of exchange for our work. And how can we do it any differently? Like, when people say, “Oh, it's yoga, shouldn't it be free?” Like, but how am I going to feed my family, you know, or pay my rent or whatever it is? So it's kind of like with pollution, like. It's the big corporations, the governments, the military, right? Yes, we can do better, and I think we can talk about this if we want, but there's many ways as individual teachers, we can do a more fair, more equitable kind of structure for how we charge or how we work with that. But I don't think that we are the problem. I think we're not the main problem. Really, it's the structure of capitalism. And if we change that structure, then I'd be more than happy to go to go back to trading. You know, I think that would be wonderful, actually, to do it that way. So it shows up, though, for people like you and I or other teachers, and that we sometimes might feel we have to exploit the practice or exploit even ourselves to try to grind harder, to make more, to get more students or whatever. And that can be really detrimental to the practice and to people too. So there's so many ways.

Harpinder Mann
Yeah, thank you so much for going into that history. Because that provides a depth of understanding that I think otherwise we don't know and isn't commonly taught, not even taught in yoga teacher trainings. And so, yeah, thank you so much for going into that detail. I think the other thing that kind of comes up to me when we're talking about this capitalism and commercialization and yoga, I think for us as teachers, is also kind of that question of like, “What is enough?” Because I feel like that rampant capitalism also shows up in us also feeling like, for anyone feeling like we need more, we need more. And I think yoga to me helps me understand, “Well, what is enough? Where's the contentment?” It's like, “Enough, this is perfect right now.” And maybe if I do want more, okay, but even finding that more with a sense of like, okay, gratitude for what I have now, and in that more, not in like a grasping way. So I think there are things that we can also consider as teachers while also understanding who are the folks that are making most of the money within yoga, and it is those owners of the yoga mats and yoga clothes who have made yoga pants a thing. And can we keep our eye on the ball and not get distracted in who we maybe point our fingers at? 

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah. Yeah. And then also, like, wouldn't we want—like, this is the other thing I think about is, like—how amazing would it be if so many South Asian folks, Folks of Color who wanted to have careers in yoga and wellness, could have that. Like, to me, that seems like reparations. That seems like part of what we're doing when we're trying to be in more right relationship is support those folks. And that support could look so many ways, including economics, right, but also, you know, time, whatever, like that for me is a big part of kind of righting the imbalance. It's like representation isn't enough, and we certainly don't want just Folks of Color like, you know, Brown faces in white places or taking up space in those ways. But I don't think that's what is happening. I think it’s more like we haven't been… we've literally been erased from the site of our Indigenous knowledge and cultural wisdom. And because we've been erased, it's so hard for us to take up space there. And not only that, it's like the way these cultures of power work is they have to erase us because we threaten them, you know, even though like we're not actually necessarily, we're not like trying to now completely kick you out, but it's like… like I can't…. like there's so many yoga teachers that I write to or even companies that I write to to say, “Hey, would you be willing to talk about cultural appropriation?” And many of them say yes, but some of them just ignore me or say no. And I have to think, well, it's because they feel again, like, like we're a threat. But it's not so simple as this person's a person or we're like equal—I’m putting my hands together ,one next to the other. It's like they have all this immense power and positionality. And like, how did they get to be… I don't know, whatever, like multi-million people yoga follower in the first place is because of privilege. And so that… their responsibility, I think, is to then lift others up. And I'll take myself as an example, because I don't want to name other names, but I'm light skinned, I'm mixed, right? Like I'm caste privileged, I have so much privilege. And I happen to have built a significant following. And I had this thought the other day, I was like, “Why am I one of the only Indian yoga teachers in the West that has a lot of followers?” Like, you can, I mean, there's so many white teachers. And it also took me like six years of consistent work. Like, I did not back.... I just kept going. It's kind of ridiculous. [Laughing] But it's not right. There needs to be more representation, and at the same time, representation is not enough. But it really should be like, all of us who want this should be like up front, center, foregrounded, all the big organizations, all the clothing companies, right, should be like taking our ideas and partnering with us. And, and it's not that yet. I think it will be, I think in the next decade, it's going to change. But, you know, that's going to be up to your readers. [Laughing] And the people that we work with, right, like in support and learn from too, to help make that change.

Harpinder Mann
You hear that listeners and readers? This is not you, you got this. I mean, I think that's such a good point that you brought up as well, is like, if we say we look out into Instagram, there are so many white teachers that have hundreds of thousands of followers, millions of followers. And then when I do think about South Asian folks, or even also Black folks within yoga and their following, it's just not the same. 

Susanna Barkataki
It’s really [unintelligable]

Harpinder Mann
And I think that's such a good example that you're giving with yourself of this like continuous, so much work went into it to get to this point six years later. 

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah. Yeah, And then the other thing—and you do this, so many of us, like this is the other thing. Okay. Are we really… it's like, it makes me so mad because… [Laughing] because okay, the minute we get that positionality, so many people are like, “But why her?” Right. They're willing to take us down. Folks from within our communities, and we're also the ones lifting. Like, I don't see a lot of those white teachers lifting up a ton of—I don't see a lot of people, like from the beginning, you, I, Tejal, the other folks have always been lifting up other folks too. But it doesn't… we can’t just be there. We have to be, I don’t know… representing something bigger than us, but we are. But also, white folks don’t get held to that same standard. It’s not… we have so much… it's easier for us to fail. And when we fail, it's also so much harder for us to recover from that. And I think that's a big part of white supremacy and how it shows up in yoga is we just don't have the same, you know… we don't have the same starting point. And then if things go awry, which I mean, we're human. Like, I'm sure all of us have said or done things that we look back at and we're like, “Ooh, that could have gone differently.” [Laughing] But it's very it's challenging to recover, more challenging for Folks of Color to recover from. And so I don't know. I'm curious how you think that can change. Right? Like the… like because representation isn't enough. And yet we are so underrepresented. And when we do get representation, it comes with so much scrutiny and critique. Like, how do we change that? Because I'm thinking of your readers or the listeners, right? Like, why would they want to step into that? [Laughing] And I would say, definitely do if you have the desire, because it's okay. Like, you'll have lots of people who love you and support you. But also like that is part of it, because systems for power.

Harpinder Mann
Yeah, and I think that's a... I think there's a lot of different layers that go into that, where I feel like there's that... the tokenism, there's the competitiveness that comes within folks… there's a scarcity that comes in, where I feel like white supremacy has kind of made it so we think and we ingrain this belief in ourselves where like, “Well, only one of us, one of us from our community can have that seat at the table. So if that person gets it, then I can’t get it.” And I know in my work, it's, I mean, I've had to do a lot of like deconditioning, deprogramming where—and the Women of Color Summit was a big project for me in that where it's like uplifting and supporting all of us so we all grow and come up together. Otherwise, I feel like that programming of the scarcity and “only one of us can succeed” and the scrutiny that we place on ourselves and those that look like us seems to be, I feel like that default programming and we need to question it. I feel like we need to question in ways that also harms ourselves. Because I think about when we are scrutinizing someone, placing that scrutiny on someone that looks like us, “Why do they have that?” Whatever it is. To me, that just says, what level of perfectionism are we placing on ourselves? Where… we're all imperfect, we're all imperfect trying to do the best that we can, and what are we focusing our attention on? And I think that shows up in different ways. Where I definitely have seen in the space of the competitiveness with one another. In Australia, it's known as like a tall poppy seed or tall poppy syndrome. Where if you see someone like rising up, you wanna kind of cut them down. So everyone is kind of at the same level. And it's just like, well, if that person is rising, and I that reminds me of Karuna or Meduta where if you see someone that's virtuous is that you have joy for them. Like look at them, look at them go. Is you have that like, “Wow, I support them! Like they're helping all of us.” And I think that's an inherent part of yoga practice. So why aren't we practicing that when we see someone doing something that's like, “Wow, look at them helping the community?” I think that's a… that's a good point that you're bringing up and a cause for reflection for everybody in ways that shows up for ourselves. And I think the other thing that makes me think about is how deeply ingrained some of these things are within us. And the importance of practicing and slowing down. Otherwise, we stay within that default programming and we keep operating in that way. And so, I'm so grateful that you shed light to these things, but also the way that you do uplift other teachers and you continue to kind of like pioneer in this space. Because I'm positive it can't be easy. Definitely cannot be easy.

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah, I've had to learn and grow a lot, especially because I like people to like me. [Laughing] Not always, not always going to be the case. And so it's really, it's really taught me a lot. And I think the biggest thing that I turn to right now is like, it's a reflection, like where people are at is a reflection of them. Like you're saying, more than of me. And I am very open for transparent and kind of like accountability and relationships. But I'm going to also go where I am wanted and focus on those relationships and, you know, let the ones that are more critical without, without that relationship of transparent communication, which is critical, not pay as much attention to that. Because the work is, I feel like—I mean, I truly believe yoga is a… it's the path to potentially creating world peace. Like I wouldn't do what I do if I didn't. And for me, it's like… and I believe that because it's created world peace in this world, like I was not a peaceful, happy person for most of my young adult life and my childhood, some of it. And the only thing that changed that was this practice. And so if it can do that, I absolutely think it can do that in, you know, communities, in conversations, in boardrooms, in hospitals, in education settings, like everywhere, you know? And so I don't have time to waste if someone doesn't like me or the way that I'm doing something and isn't ready to have a conversation. Like, I'm open to the conversations, absolutely, and to listening and to, you know, taking care if I've caused harm. But if it's just critique for the sake of critique, like, let's, let's just keep focused and moving, moving forward. And that has made a big difference. That's really helped. Because for a long time, I really dwelled on the critique and like, “Oh, is there something in there that I need to listen to?” And I still do. I'll listen to it and I'll take the lesson like, “Oh, okay, I could have done that better. I could have, you know…” even if it's not said kindly, and then I'll just keep going. And that does help because there's so many people who value what we have to do and what we have to share. And they may not always tell us, you know, but the critics, it's like, show up very loudly and mirror the inner critic. [Laughing] So it's it is it's a whole thing, but it's another place to bring the practice of like focusing and then choosing what I'll focus on and then moving, moving in the continual direction of growth. 

Harpinder Mann
And I think this is an important lesson for yoga students, yoga teachers, but also just humans in general. Because like we've been talking about is we're all in relationship with one another. And some of that relationship or energy in… the world that we live in now, we're just plugged into so much. We're just plugged into like thousands and millions of people, where before it would have been like my community of 50 people. And I had a session with my therapist yesterday where we spoke—and we're getting really off topic, but I think this is important in this space because yoga is about really uncovering these deeper depths within ourselves—and we, with my therapist, we kind of took a look at the part of me that in writing this book comes out and says, “You don't know enough, this book's gonna be bad, everyone's going to hate it, then people are really going to know how much you don't know. You're a bad writer." And we investigated that part of myself, and that part of myself was kind of hunched over, just covered in slime, and was really tuned in to the energy of all the critics and the internet trolls, and just this such negative energy in this work going over to that part of myself, this like orb of energy around it to kind of protect that part of myself and the slime came off and emerged a 12-year-old version of me. And I think it can be… and I work with a lot of teens now at mental health centers, and I think there is just the reality of so much negativity and the comparison and the critiques that are alive right now in the modern world that we live in, just being so connected to millions of people. Just, I grab my phone, boom, I'm there. So I think for us as then modern yoga practitioners is holding that as a reality. And what can we then do within our practice to, in a way, kind of shield and protect ourselves from that. Because that pulls our focus away. That pulls away that like one-pointed concentration on our mind, on our focus, on our goal, on that liberation if we're constantly like, “What about that person? What about that person? But they're going to say that!” And I say that myself as a person who loves compliments and loves external validation. And my yoga teacher had to work with me to be like, “That's great that your student said that thing about you, and that's great that that student loved that thing about you, but you need to build that validation for yourself because at the end of the day, that's what counts.” And I'm still working on that. [Laughing] It's not there yet. But I think this is an important conversation. 

Susanna Barkataki
I love that practice you just shared that you went through with your therapist. That was helpful for me personally because I also have those feelings and it just felt very normalizing. So I hope you include that in some form or fashion in the book because that was really that like helped my soul. Yeah, thank you.

Harpinder Mann
I'm glad that that helped. Yeah, because I think the part of this practice too is normalizing all of these things. And how so many of us feel lesser than, not enough, no matter what our status is. Yeah, I think that's important. Another question that I had for you as we start to move towards the end of our conversation is: how can people begin their work of either decolonizing, dismantling themselves, these internalized beliefs that they might have, and then their understanding and study and practice of yoga in its sort of holistic, more encompassing way?

Susanna Barkataki
Yeah. Hmm. I mean, decolonization, I feel like… kind of like colonization is… it's not just a one-time thing, right, it's a process, so it's something that will probably be in and committed to, I mean, I feel like I'll be committed to it my whole life. And so one thing is to like know that you're entering a process that's going to change you and that it maybe will change some of the choices that you make and the things that you do in your life and that it will take time. And so unpacking the need to do it right, to be perfect at it, to allow yourself not to rush but to go slowly in order to stay consistent. Because one of the things I've seen a lot is people rush in and buy all the books and then they want to do book clubs and all the work. And then they're like, I was… I can't tell you how many people were like, “Susanna, your book—I read like a quarter of it and then I got overwhelmed and then I had to stop.” And I was like, “Oh, oh.” And then I like I started to feel like I had to put qualifiers around it. Like, no, actually, you just need to slow down with it and come back to it. And I'm imagining that yours will be the same of like—like this isn't something to just be consumed in a weekend, right? This is like a book to pick up, to come back to, to think through, to like let a question that you ask simmer and percolate and, you know, maybe like practice with like… so there's, there's a way that we need to, I feel like part of decolonizing is to engage differently, like to just kind of pattern interrupt or usual ways of engagement. General decolonization work is going to mean getting into relationship with the Indigenous practitioners of a practice that you're connecting with, as well as the indigenous stewards of the land that you're on. Right? So that also is… can take time and it's a process and takes building relationship. I can't think of what's more valuable, though, than building meaningful relationships. Like, that gives so much meaning to life. And so, doing that with the folks who steward the land or the practices that we're practicing is the big way that I think I, and we, can decolonize. And then, like you said throughout this, our time talking is like, yoga is a practice that teaches us to go inward, that teaches us to self-reflect and to practice swadhyaya. In terms of yoga, to explore and learn, practice and teach as much of the full expanse of what yoga is as possible and to not jump too quickly from practicing to teaching. So like for example, with mantra, like my teacher… so I don't teach mantra, I chant mantra because it's part of my practice and I've been practicing with it for a couple decades, but if I was to teach, I'd probably go do 20 more years of study before I taught. And so I hope that that lands for folks is like really take time with things before you go and turn to teach. Like you don't have to learn something and then turn around and teach it right away. And so explore and practice all of the limbs of yoga and then cite references, like refer to your book, right? Put it on the bookshelves, put it on the teacher training list, write to your local libraries, like get the works of Folks of Color, particularly South Asian folks in yoga, out there and continue to do that. And then I think for those ready for a bit more of a, like, I don't know, like, challenge in a way, is like, ask ourselves and other yoga practitioners, teachers, studios, yoga spaces, institutions, the challenging questions, like, ask, like, “Why are there not, say, South Asian yoga teachers on your yoga teacher training faculty?” “Why is there…” you know, like, “Why do I not see books by, you know, South Asian folks on the reading list?” “Why is this festival, like, mostly white folks,” right? Like, these are questions we can start to ask with curiosity, not in opposition, but in order to help create and change the culture. And it might be asking ourselves those hard questions of like, “Wow, I…” I'm just putting myself like, like if I think about when I lived in Orlando, it was a small yoga community and I would say 90% white. And it was also still hard for those teachers to make a living. So it's like, “Wow, if I like split this workshop or bring in a South Asian yoga teacher, I'm going to be making half the profit. So how do I, like, how do I sustain and also do more of what's right?” You know, like, “How can this be not at detriment to me or maybe at detriment to me, but maybe that's okay because of the history of erasure and, you know, extraction and all of that?” So it's really asking those hard questions. Yeah, I think those are some of the ways I can think about with decolonizing. Just trying to think. Oh, I think the last thing I would probably say, there's so much, there's much, much more. It's like, I'm sure your whole book is [Laughing] goes into this, but is connecting us to natural rhythms, right? Because yoga as an original, Earth-based practice was connecting us to nature. To earth, wind, fire, air, space, to the elements within us and all around us. And even, you know, Brahminical patriarchal yoga cut us off from that. So it's not like the West was the only one to appropriate. Like there's been histories of appropriation and we can go back to those natural connections. We don't have to stay disconnected and that is so liberating, that’s part of what yoga gives us. And it definitely is part of decolonizing.

Harpinder Mann
Yeah, thank you for sharing all of those different ways that folks can begin this process and decolonization. I think it's important. Also, it's another reminder of: go slow, there's not a race. It's not a race who can be like “the best person at this.” Because otherwise, maybe you will burn out or you'll give up or you go back to your default programming. Um, and I just love all the other examples that you gave as well and really tuning into the natural rhythms of the world around us as we become, kind of, more and more like on laptops and computers and inside. Like, how do we go outside and connect back to the land and to the beings and it's important. This morning I was just like, looking out—it was raining today in Los Angeles. I'm not sure if it is where you are. 

Susanna Barkataki
It is. It's so rainy!

Harpinder Mann
Yeah, it's really nice. I was looking outside and I love the rain and just watching my cat in the rain. She doesn't seem to mind it, which I think is really funny and kind of unusual for a cat. And she was just like staring into some dirt and just watching bugs. Watching bugs walking by. And I was like, “If I could have that level of concentration on just like a bug, like that to me would really be yoga, just being so focused on living in the present moment” and not just like, “I have this thing to do and now that thing and the speed and the urgency.” And so moving slowly on this path, I think is such a beautiful reminder. So thank you for sharing with us, Susanna. 

Susanna Barkataki
Love that. [Laughing] 

Harpinder Mann
As we kind of close, is there anything else that you wish to share? Any hopes that you have for modern yoga or for practitioners? 

Susanna Barkataki
Hmmm. I mean, I do really hope that this practice, the fullness of it, is preserved for the future. And when I started this work, I wasn't sure that it was going to be. I do now think that it will be. And I would say it's because there’s so many more of us doing this work. And, I feel like if you… for folks who are listening or reading, it’s like, if you have… like if there's anything in you that's like, “Oh, I want to go deeper in this practice. Oh, there's something calling to me about yoga. Oh, what if I could teach? What if I could take up space in that world?” And you're a Person of Color, you're a South Asian, like, please do it. Like, yes, we want you, we need you. And no pressure, right? [Laughing] You don't have to, but also if you're feeling it, like we are cheering you on and our ancestors are cheering you on. And it's you and I, all of us, that are going to make that difference for the future of yoga. And for our allies, also it’s like, every time you care about the heart of yoga, everytime learn about something beyond asana and you teach in a way… I'm going to pause. Can you hear my puppy?

Harpinder Mann
I could hear him barking.

Susanna Barkataki
You can? Yeah?

Harpinder Mann
I did hear him, but I think it adds a little flavor to the...

Susanna Barkataki
Okay, cool. Yeah! Like, every time you teach in a way that brings in the leadership of South Asian folks or of like expanded yoga culture, you're helping preserve this tradition too. And you're also connecting back to your own roots, your own connection to the earth, to the land, to nature. So we need all of us. And I would say just keep going, like keep practicing, keep teaching. Mmmm. And then also let's like change the language because you can't really “go to” yoga, but you can “be” yoga. So let's be like not, “I'm going to yoga class,” right? But I’m… I don't know, how would we say it? Like, “I'm gonna be yoga in community for a little while.” [Laughing]

Harpinder Mann
Yeah, Shyam Ranganathan talks about like the Big Y Yoga and the small Y yoga. And the Big Y Yoga being that essence and the small Y yoga being the practices. And I was like, “Oh, that's a really interesting way to look at it.” And I was like, it makes sense to have, like, that designation. So we're not all just like thinking small Y yoga is all that there is. And it's like, the practices are to get us to that essence of feeling into that Big Y Yoga. And hopefully so that becomes more of our time alive, we feel in that way. And I think that's to me… I was like, “Oh, interesting. I never heard it that way.” So that was helpful.

Susanna Barkataki
That's really beautiful. I love that. And I just want to say I'm so excited for your book and your work. And yeah, I'm really, really, like, I'm very excited for your book in particular, Harpinder, and for the, you know… having seen the work that you do and the way that you are writing and thinking and talking and your guidance for us and for this practice is so… it's like immeasurably helpful. So, thank you.

Harpinder Mann
Thank you for sharing that, Susanna. I mean, because I definitely feel that sense of, like, the critic and the, the fear and all those things and to know that there are folks like yourself that are like cheering on and supporting and also doing the work is just so amazing and so incredible. And so I so appreciate you, Susanna, agreeing to be on this podcast and being so supportive and sharing your wisdom and in this way helping to uplift so many of us. And also for me is also this other reminder to keep going, to keep uplifting others and building these like strong beautiful communities. So thank you so much I'm just like so so appreciative. And I'll link—I'm gonna link all this stuff in the show notes and other things as well. But where can people find you?

Susanna Barkataki
Yes, so I do a lot of like, fun education on Instagram, so you can follow me at my name, @susannabarkataki. And I also run an institute called Ignite Institute for Yogic Leadership and Social Change. And we run teacher trainings, but we're soon to be moving into be running, like train the trainer, and for folks who want to run their own teacher trainings that are culturally connected and social justice informed in their communities. And then also like DEI mindfulness, DEI speaking, teaching, all of that. It’s, because I—like to me, this is that exact thing of like, it's it's no longer it's not going to be any one of us. It's going to be all of us. And so how do we get the work out there so other people can go out and share and teach? And so if you're interested in that... probably the best place to go is also my name, my website, so SusannaBarkataki.com. 

Harpinder Mann
Awesome. And I will have all those things linked so everyone can find it. Thank you, Susanna, so much. This was a wonderful conversation. And I know I learned so much. I know folks that will be listening to this will learn so much. So thank you. And thank you, everybody, so much for tuning in, for listening. I'll see you all for the next one. I'll see you all for the next one. Bye.