Episode 5: creating braver yoga spaces with tejal patel transcript
Harpinder Mann:
I am so excited to be joined by Tejal. And we're going to hop straight into it with our first question of what does yoga mean to you?
Tejal Patel:
This question's great because yoga has been part of my life for a really long time, and I think it's become more and more important to me. And so I love that because it clues me into actually the fact that yoga just stays with you. And how it's shown up for me is providing me this pathway through the teachings of yoga that really helped me explore how to have a more peaceful existence. I think that helps to really ground the purpose of yoga. We can talk about like moksha and liberation and samadhi and all these things that can feel up in the clouds a little bit. But to me, the nuts and bolts of it is that yoga is a pathway to guide towards a more peaceful existence.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. I love that. Very succinct. It creates that pathway for peaceful existence. And I know I've, I've felt that for myself and different ways of being angry about things or holding grudges and then coming onto this path and being like, oh, holding a grudge is only hurting myself. I should just let it go. But yoga provides those, that wisdom and tools for us to be able to do that. Is there one example of how yoga has helped you have a more peaceful existence?
Tejal Patel:
I think through the practice of Asana, that has helped me use my body in different ways than I had ever before, opened me up to more ideas around how to exist because I could explore myself in a way that I didn't know existed before. And then when I really started to sit with this practice of meditation and let it evolve with me and grow with me and realize that my practice of meditation might always have a little bit of imperfection because I might constantly be struggling against perfectionism, that was a really great example of relationships to me are similar. I might have a lot of expectation for how to be in relationship but how it really shows up and how I am in relationship and how others are in relationship isn't always going to be perfect. But I can let some of that go. Just like you were saying, not hold a grudge, not be silent when I noticed I had an expectation that wasn't communicated. Be more communicative around a boundary because I've been in the practice of noticing things for so long that I know it would be better for me to set up things in a certain way or build a relationship geared towards what I know about myself. And then also it's shown me a really practical way of how to receive that from other people as well. Because I have a feeling, I'll talk about meditation a lot, but meditation is essentially a practice of deep listening and allowing stillness in your body if you're able, so that you can listen better or find focus in the listening. And then you might think, well, what are you listening to if meditation's quiet? And just everything under the sun shows up in meditation for me.
And being able to listen and not feel that overwhelmed, being able to stay present and not be taken away by any one particular thought or give myself compassion to come back to practicing the listening. Even when something is like really pressing or has shown up as super priority, I need to like get up and go do the thing I just thought of. It's this practice of returning to myself so that I can keep listening. And I think that's been really, really helpful for me in relationships to then experience that for myself and then be able to offer that in the way that I've practiced with other people.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. The two things that really leapt out to me as you were talking was around your practice not having to be perfect. And that's just a mirror to life. Because when we are aiming for perfection and having really these expectations, oftentimes maybe the expectations aren't going to be met. And then how are we going to sit with whatever arises? And allowing even our practice to be imperfect, I think is just giving grace for being human and being alive where things just aren't going to be perfect. And I know I've had to do a lot of just like shedding around perfectionism in different ways that I've been taught of what it means to get straight A's and what it means to succeed and all the different ways we get indoctrinated into perfectionism. What I also love is your definition of meditation, being that, that deep listening, really taking that time to see what arises.
And I know also being a meditator, like the things that arise, I'm like, where'd that come from? But had I not taken that time to really sit down and be, and maybe that wouldn't have come or shown up in that way. And that's, that's that importance of practicing. Going along with this, something else that's coming up for me is what does yoga teach you then in terms of perhaps from philosophy or how we can live and embody our yoga? because as you're talking, you're not talking about how do I learn a certain shape on my yoga mat and stay there. We're talking about, you know, the learnings that we're receiving from the actual practice and then applying that to our life. And how do we take that yoga off of our mat? So, what are some things that yoga has taught you, whether from philosophy or something else, and how can we live and embody that?
Tejal Patel:
Yoga just continues to teach me so much. And I can remember 10 years ago when I started trying to teach in group settings and in studio classes and really questioning this idea that someone can have a certificate and then teach dharma from having that certificate and really try to impart this wisdom of yoga feeling so daunting for me, it just didn't feel accessible. And I think the balance of being a student and a teacher change throughout the different seasons of your life. And it definitely did for me. And even though I had this certificate and I had this background and upbringing in, in types of yoga it really struck me that I, that the scales were tipped more on the student side, although the teacher plate was a little bit full too, but it just wasn't as heavy, you know, for the scales to be balanced.
And yeah, I found that really daunting. I found that really challenging to me coming from a teaching background of tutoring and teaching math and then managing in finance as a manager and just feeling like in those spaces I knew I knew what to do. I knew the answers, I knew where to go. And if I didn't, I always had someone available for me to help guide me. And with yoga, I found it to be a little more peculiar because my interests and desire to learn certain things didn't always match the teachers that were available to me or that I have found through my own study. So I think where I'm going with this is that even to this day I'm, I'm much more able to dig into the philosophy of yoga and tie it back to everyday practical application. But that doesn't mean I'm any less a student. It might just mean I'm a little more a teacher and that the scales still have kind of like weights on both sides. And maybe now it's a little less imbalanced. But that, that proportioning just changes over life. And what I've learned about yoga is that it really allows us to be open to different avenues of thought. And I guess what I'm really saying is like the way information comes in, yoga teaches us how to look at that information more and more with practice, with a dispassionate lens. So, if something comes in and it's hurt me or affected me as I've practiced yoga, I can explore how to pause around that reaction and try to see, you know, what are the roots of this? Is this something that I really need to carry with me? This hurt, this impact?
And it, it shows up in everything. Like if I stub to toe, if I was offended by something someone said to me, if I did something to someone else, like I'll spend time thinking about that in a way that allows me to not be so identified with it like I did that I'm a bad person. I stubbed my toe, I'm super clumsy. More it teaches me to say I had a clumsy moment or I didn't say something nice, but I'm learning how to do better. And a lot of reframing has come into my life because of the teachings of yoga that have helped me understand that the way I take in information isn't always fact-based and the way that I judge myself and judge others isn't always fact-based, even if I've had a lot of experience with that before. And that word is inference. Like knowing something's going to look a certain way in the future because it's happened to me so much in the past. Yoga has actually given me a tool to say, take a pause. That's not necessarily the case. Let things refresh in order to move forward. But it's also taught me to understand when harm is being done, not to wipe it, wipe it under the mat or under the rug to notice it as harm is being done. And then see what actions I can take or what I can impact around that. Or if I need to walk away.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah, there is so much wisdom in everything that you shared. I think that piece around knowing that not all of our judgements or inferences that we're making are necessarily fact or true. As I was working on, on the book on Saturday, Thich Nhat Hahn says 99% of our perceptions aren't true. They're wrong. And as I was thinking about that, I was just laughing. because I've had in the past week, I mean, maybe the past couple weeks, I've, I've just been more purposeful about observing. Like when I think something is true, whether maybe an example is I think, oh, I have my friends mad at me. I have a conversation. My friend's like, what are you talking about? We're totally fine. I'm like, oh, again, like a perception shattered where I thought something was true and it just wasn't true. And I find when we operate in this way, we're creating more spaciousness. We're creating more spaciousness. We're not so rigid and like, this is what it is. And it's just like, is it, is it actually that way? And creating that spaciousness is, is so helpful.
And I, I love that that's something that yoga has really taught you because it makes a big difference. It makes a big difference in the way that we operate with ourselves and with others where it's just like, oh, I'm, I'm wrong again. But that doesn't make me a bad person. It just means like, I'm human. How funny. Like, I'll try again tomorrow. And I love that. because I think that provides like a lot of grace around being human. And I know that a teacher that we have in common is Juliana Mitchell. And something she says all the time, I'm in her Yoga Sutra study club. And this was right before this, she was, she always says, you're perfect just as you are and you could use a little bit of work. And I think that's such a beautiful teaching and place to operate from. You're perfect just as you are, but you know, we could all use a little bit of work and that shows up in our perception sometimes being wrong.
Tejal Patel:
Yeah. She's wonderful. <Laugh>.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. She's very rooted in her practices and that's a beautiful thing to see.
Tejal Patel:
I find this the conversation around spaciousness and pause to be so special because when that happens over time, it inevitably leads to more observation around how people are similar than dissimilar. Hmm. Like if I'm taking a pause because of a misconception and it helps me unravel some conflict that I'm having with someone, ultimately, I'll understand the conflict better, but I'll understand them better. Mm. And that it just leads to really one of these core ideas of yoga, which is that all beings are interconnected, right? All things are connected. So I find that to be really profound. And yeah, it's nothing about really moving on the mat. I mean, there are ways you can process through movement, but studying this has really helped me kind of let go a little bit of the gripping around right or wrong. Mm-Hmm. And know to different ways of being and really explore more about how we're interconnected than you know, about how we're different through conflict and through everyday life experience.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. There is a saying or just an understanding. Multiple truths can exist at the same time. And I think that offers, again, that, that spaciousness where again, there's no right or wrong, it's we, each one of us is coming in with our own world views, perspectives, experiences, and that colors the way that we view the world. And I find also in that conversation of pausing and the way that you're pausing, able to understand the conflict better, the other person better, it allows us to then see the worldview that the other person holds. And begin to understand why folks would be feeling a certain way. This, this kind of leads into the next question around BIPOC, disabled folks, marginalized communities especially in the last couple years, kind of coming out and saying, hey, the way that we're practicing yoga and the way that it's made accessible isn't actually accessible and it's causing harm. And I think there's been more of an effort to try to listen to what these communities are saying and ways that we can make an impact and change. Although still some folks being like, no, it's fine the way it is. But where do you see what's been normalized in modern yoga that causes harm?
Tejal Patel:
I've seen a lot of things in modern yoga that causes harm. And I've also seen how discomfort has been confused for danger. Which I think has been really interesting to sit with. And ultimately, it's all subjective. Like it's all subjective. And where I think the harm lives is when the practice is made to exclude people, either through lack of consideration or outright exclusion, and then justified for those things. So, I've seen that happen around practicing a certain type of Asana movement meditation and really justifying that it's the way to practice yoga.
This example that has been, I don't know a lot of people's experience in, in some kind of variation is a student coming up to me and saying, my friend told me I was doing this pose wrong. Can you take a look at it? And I, of course was so sad, but I was like, yeah, let's look at it <laugh>. And I was excited because this was an opportunity to kind of debunk whatever that friend was saying. Mm. And they took the downward facing dog pose, and said, I'm doing this wrong because my heels don't touch the ground. That's what I was told. I think that's harmful, right? I think it's harmful for someone to be the truth teller without any variation. If that friend had said, oh, I was taught down dog with your heels down. How does that feel for you? Oh, you don't like that? That's not achievable. It's not possible. Oh, okay, let me go find out more about what I was taught. Or if that person had said, oh, why don't you practice? I just got the certificate. I'm super excited to practice with you. How about you take this pose downward facing dog pose? And they noticed the heels weren't down there. There was rounding in the spine, there was pin straight legs. Maybe guiding towards a different way to be in that posture or just not saying that it's wrong or just saying, okay, yeah, downward facing dog. Right? I think that's an example of where things go wrong and then they get justified as being one way or the other that creates harm.
But other ways I've seen this happen is when yoga philosophy gets confused with love and light philosophy and everything outside of love and light or warm and cozy vibes or, you know, happy, healthy vibes is in a yoga space, and then that's not tolerated, that's not accepted that's pushed out of the space, which essentially means you're pushing people having a lived experience in as a complex human being out of a yoga space. And that's not what the yoga philosophy teaches you. That's what some other philosophy teaches you. Some toxic spirituality, that's its own school of thought.
So that's the place where I see a lot of harm and I see a lot of harm in yoga when, when we look at, when we avoid looking at systemic issues and then recreate them in the yoga space. Like the issue of yoga being too expensive to take a class or to drop in because inflation's really high and people don't have a lot of spending money. And that's something going on with the world or with our local economy. And then you don't address that at all in your yoga space, and you assume you are in a vacuum outside of that, which then brings in the people that also assume that, that have the privilege to be practicing in a certain way without any other consideration. And it kind of isolates a lot of people out of the practice. And because the space has, because the yoga space exists, it's seen as somewhat of an authority or somewhat of a service, but now the service isn't available. And that can really create harm, make people feel bad, make people feel excluded, make people feel like the practice isn't even meant for them because of the culture at the studio.
Harpinder Mann:
The most common response I get to, I practice yoga. I teach yoga, is like, oh, I'm not flexible enough. And that is by far the most common response I get. And I think that's another harm that gets caused to yoga and potential students and practitioners is there's this mainstream understanding that yoga equals exercise is something it all has to do with like, just stretching. And we see that portrayed in media and TV and yoga studios and the way that it's practiced, where it's just this understanding like, yep, that's what yoga is. And then if there is that conversation around yoga philosophy, it does become that love and light and very toxic spirituality.
And I also hear a lot of conversations then around like manifestation. Like, if you're good at manifesting something, then you are a good spiritual person. I'm like, those two are on the complete opposite sides of one another. Like me being able to manifest a car in a house has absolutely nothing to do with me being on the path of yoga. But yet those things get conflated. And I'm just like, what is going on in these yoga spaces? And some of that, I see that in like new moon circles or coming to people coming together to manifest things. And I think, you know, it's good to come together and have, have intentions for what you are wanting to call on. But if it's only material goods, are we really practicing yoga, are really understanding yoga? I personally, I just, I don't think so.
Tejal Patel:
I love that you mentioned that because it's such a big question. I was, I was also wondering where do I go with this? But this idea of manifestation, it, it's just so harmful. It's so, it's one of the harms in modern yoga, and it bypasses, you know, a person's privilege. It bypasses their means. It bypasses their accessibility to services to say, look what I did, look what I did, which is pure thought or, you know, pure yoga practice on my mat. And that's just not true at all. I had a workshop series that I loved offering because I called it Stop Manifesting, Start Forecasting Your Finances. And that's something that you don't hear about in the yoga world as a wellness professional, as a person that teaches yoga, you don't hear about how to actually forecast how to consider a career teaching yoga and how it might need to fit in with other ways to earn money and income. Because if you really sit down and look at all this stuff you might stop, you might have to stop believing the, the people touting manifesting your future successes and wealth. But it's so true, it's so harmful because then we go down this path and we think love and light, if only I just keep at it, things will come together for me. And it's like, no, because individualism, isn't it? It's actually, if we loop back to what you asked me earlier, it's counter to the purpose of yoga. The purpose of yoga is collective liberation, and you do your individual practices, but that's how it trickles out into the world and into all your relationships so that everybody can feel that benefit.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. And that also goes back to earlier talking about yoga, teaching us how interconnected we are. Yoga was never meant, meant as just this like self-serving practice, self-serving spiritual practice. And yet I feel like the calm that is causing yoga is that that's what we think it is. We come, we have our mat, we do our practice, then we leave. We're looking at how am I improving? And it's like, it's, it's not just that there's so much more to this practice. And I think that's the importance of having teachers that are really steeped in the traditions and the philosophies and the culture who understand these things. I was having a conversation with a professor of religious studies; I can't remember exactly. And he was talking about he has seen yoga practitioners who start to learn about yogic philosophy and are just like, what is this?
Because what they've been taught is like new age spirituality, and that's what they assume yoga is. And they start actually learning about say, like moksha or karma about dharma and not dharma, the way that it's been kind of changed to you believe whatever you think it is. And they're just like, wait, what is this? Like I, I have no interest in this, like learning about what it actually is like. And I'm like, yeah, because it's very foreign to ideas like manifestation and only thinking about having positive thoughts. And I was like, well, that's the difference. That's the difference. And it's not actually those things, but it can be jarring for folks who have been taught a certain type of philosophy thinking this is what yoga is, and you're like, no, that's not what it is. And I found that conversation really interesting in, in talking to him and, and I was like, yeah, that's, it's true.
Tejal Patel:
I have an example. I'm not sure it's super relevant, but it feels like it touches on everything we've talked about already, which is inference and harm and creating community spaces and understanding, you know, a question at face value instead of what you might think the conversation is. But I was planning a trip to Santa Cruz and it was going to be a bunch of friends. We wanted to take a yoga class. My friend in Santa Cruz asked their colleague, do you know of any BIPOC yoga teachers in the area? And that person who also is trained in yoga and goes to India for a study and is a white woman, said, why? Doesn't mean they didn't even say why they responded with a BIPOC yoga teacher. Doesn't mean they can teach yoga better. That was the immediate response. And I just think that ain't it. Like that isn't the yoga philosophy and action that isn't getting curious, creating pause that is using inference in some way, shape or form to color your lens and your response. It is being reactive, which the practice teaches us how to be responsive, not reactive. And it's a harm because whatever that person is holding, it's somehow going to show up in other ways and means.
Harpinder Mann:
Hmm. I mean, I feel like the first thing that came up to me when you shared that, well first was just like, like, ugh. And then the second of it was I feel like yoga also asked us to look at the identities that we hold and to also take a look at like which identities color our perspective and our views. But then taking a step further to see which identities like give us privilege and power. And I think in her response, it's not taking into account one, the person asking the question, my was the person asking the question also BIPOC, or are they also…
Tejal Patel:
Or white woman
Harpinder Mann:
White looking
Tejal Patel:
Into a white woman?
Harpinder Mann:
Interesting. I just, I just think there is, within yoga and the work that I've had to do in these spaces is to look at my identities and to look at the ways that does give me power and privilege. And I'm just a little bit stunned when folks are yoga practitioners, teachers and haven't done that work for themselves. Because I think the ultimate question we get asked or I get asked in yoga is like, who am I? And then a part of that if we're talking about non harm is which parts of my identities are going to potentially cause harm and how can I minimize that? So if someone is asking, what are some BIPOC taught spaces? And your answer is like, well, they're, it doesn't mean like they're going to teach better. Well, no one is saying that they can teach better. Maybe we're just saying where can we seek safety or potential safety. But I think that's just another way the harm shows up in modern yoga where we're not taking the time to reflect on that in that particular space. Yeah. I'm glad you shared that. I'm just sitting with it.
Tejal Patel:
It's a still, these are small things. My friend didn't have to share it with me. Probably didn't realize how, how long I'd be sitting with it. And just really just mulling that over as to what can I learn from that. Hmm. But also, a reminder of what else is part of the conversation. Hmm. Especially when you and I do the work of creating spaces that are really intentional and have like clearly stated values. People know what the goal or the environment will be when they walk in the space. That ends up becoming like a really nice way to do the work that I do. And then I get reminded and it is stunning, like you said, it just, sometimes it still stops me on my track and then I go back to doing that work of not feeling bad that I lost sight of that or was surprised or, you know, whatever showed up for me because it's just information at the end of the day. And it helps me to grow, but it also helps me because I've chosen this path of student and teacher. Mm. And it helps me to understand maybe what more I could teach on in a current day context.
Harpinder Mann:
So then I will ask, I'm curious, what did you learn from that?
Tejal Patel:
I learned that California is different than New York, <laugh>, culturally <laugh>. And I was in New York for 13 years and before that I was in the Midwest, but I was always really active in social justice circles, circles that honored racial ethnic communities and our cultural heritages. And even in New York when that wasn't always the case, when I started being really intentional about cultivating those spaces or joining those spaces, it wasn't that challenging. And then now I've been in LA on Tongva and Kizh lands for only maybe eight or nine months and just traveling a little bit here and there up and down California and just discovering a newness here to the culture, to the people, to the energy for the work that I do. So that was a great reminder that something I did three, four years ago that felt like a massive effort and a lot of education and widely popular was still from a limited frame of reference. And so it's nice to be reminded of that because then I can keep educating on things that really the book hasn't closed on.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. I feel like I had this last year or the year before or at the height of like 2020 when it seemed like everyone was really learning about anti-racism and wanting to do the work. And like last, last year or the year before, I realized I had really put myself into kind of like a little bubble of sorts where I, with the creation of the Womxn of Color Summit and what the private clients that I had and the work that I was doing, I was just very intentionally surrounding myself with BIPOC. It just felt more like a safe, brave space coming from years of working in organizations. I'm the only person of color oftentimes the youngest and feeling like, oh, like can I speak up? Am I going to be heard? And then when I would try, oftentimes I wasn't actually heard and it just felt safer in doing this work to intentionally create these communities. But I had this moment, like last or the year before kind of going as like things open back up and going out into the community. And I was just like, oh, oh. I was like, I thought things were changing. And it was really only because I think I'd created this little bubble and then being in conversation with more folks and hearing the perspectives and not just from white folks, from BIPOC folks as well, and I was just like, oh, there's a lot more work still to be done. Which is why I was like, I'm thankful that there are communities like A, B, c, d Yogi, like Thecal yoga that are continuing to do this work. And this kind of leads into this next question of why is it important for communities like Tejal Yoga to exist?
Tejal Patel:
I think when that example was told to me, I felt also a little bit shut down. I wasn't part of that conversation at all, but just hearing that that's still a thought that is shared and the way it was shared, the, like that that doubt, that kind of irritation at this thought that maybe I'm not good enough, or maybe someone's telling me not to teach yoga because it's not mine and I'm just tired of talking about this. I'm tired of hearing about it. And you're right. Like if that's an extrapolation from 2020 to to, you know, two years down the road, that's a really sad place for us as a society to live in. Like that shortsightedness and that burst of energy that happened because of an atrocious murder of George Floyd. And then how quickly that spark of interest like faded away and went back to me, me, me. What about me? Yeah.
So, I mean that has shown me that yes, there are people that still could stand to be educated if they were ever willing. But what it also shows me is that aside from that example, having a space like Tejal Yoga, which is a very community and people focused place to practice those values decolonized wellness, a commitment to, you know, non-dominant culture norms, a commitment to South Asian and yoga culture, authentic from its roots that is justice driven. A place like that deserves to exist, I think along with other places that have similar shared values. And what I find really empowering about having Tejal Yoga is hearing from the students that say, I'm here because there isn't a space where I am where I can find practices and people similar in mindset to me around values and commitment. And it reminds me that even though there's someone who's has a scarcity mindset and is constantly thinking about me, and they're me, me, me there might be people around them that are looking for options. Hmm.
I think that's really important to remember in the face of fluctuating, you know, student patterns and the pressures of running a business because, you know, the yoga is a business, it's not a nonprofit. And trying to navigate that fine line between being a business and being like, just like a greedy business, you know, there is, there is a line Mm-Hmm. And you couldn't do one without doing the other. So that's what's kind of interesting to me about cultivating this community. And I think it's a really important to have spaces where Black, Indigenous and other people of the global majority feel welcome and feel comfortable practicing yoga. I think it's really important for people who are gender expansive, to have places to practice yoga, where they know they're not going to be you know, othered or mispronounced, if that's the way to say it.
It's, you know, someone's going to just unintentionally or intentionally not use their, not respect their pronouns. I think it's really important for Tejal Yoga to exist because it is one of the few places in this country and online space that is all South Asian teacher led. And it's also one of the few spaces that I know of that offers yoga as a holistic practice that is more than just movement. I could go on and on, you know, <laugh>,
Harpinder Mann:
<Laugh> I mean, as a teacher at Tejal Yoga, I know I have found how safe it has also felt for me to teach. And I, I've shared this in other podcasts and articles and things I've, I've written or been a part of how I only taught at yoga studios the first like four to five months I've been teaching for five years now. And just not really ever knowing what students were bringing in. And oftentimes what students were bringing in was what their understanding of yoga was as what was taught to them by the studio. And having students coming up. I remember this one student coming up my first time meeting her. It's a full class, and she kinda like, bumps me a little bit like trying to be cute. And she was like, can we like, make sure this class like really targets our glutes? And I just look at her and I was just like, I'll see what I can do. And then she kind of like winks at me, like walks back to her mat. And I just remember turning around. I was just like, and at that time I think I'd been teaching for maybe two years and I turned around like, am I going to please this student? Like, what am I going to, how am I going to like?
And then now being in this space teaching at Tejal Yoga, we're like, students know what to expect, come in, coming in. They know it's this holistic understanding of yoga and how can, yes, we transform and understand ourselves in a better way, but it's also for the betterment of all people and for all beings. And having that understanding as a student coming in and then for the teacher and the teacher having the same understanding, it makes a big difference. It makes a big difference when everyone in the space kind of knows what, what it is coming in. And I'm not sure how often a lot of organizations or yoga studios, whatever it might be, are coming in and setting, like these are shared agreements and this is our vision for the space and being really transparent and open with that. The next question I have for you that ties into this is how can someone create a brave community group or space? Either for certain identity groups or just overall how do we create these like brave and I've stopped using safe? because We can't guarantee safety. And I know that comes from, I'm, I'm forgetting her name now. But how do we create brave community spaces and, and community groups?
Tejal Patel:
Yeah, I can only speak from, you know, my experience. And I also want to say that for all the times I've tried, there have been times that I didn't succeed as well. And I just think that's really important because, not because I called it a safe space and failed at, you know, everyone feeling safe, but just because I'm one person that's creating an intention. And then of course, I survey a lot, I survey the students a lot. I survey the teachers a lot invite in a lot of reflections, like after every class you're invited to share reflections as a way to continue investing in the space that you want to be in and see changes that you want to see happen where possible. And in order to kind of hold that container for all these reflections, good, bad, ugly, excited, you know, fearful, traumatic, all these reflections, it's been really important to be clear about the vision of Tejal yoga. Get clearer about the values organizationally, and also the values that the teachers are invited to uphold as well. And then reiterating those values and that vision and how to reiterate that. It's like just noticing when that opportunity presents itself because it's usually masked through some other means.
So, for example,Tejal yoga is very people focused, but that focus is on showing up in community and also on building relationships with one another. So, there's some reciprocity there. And then there's also the effort of being present. So, when someone outside of the community completely that has never shown up before asks me for something like, ask me for a teaching spot or just like, cold call sends me a pitch my response is, here's a code. Why don't you try a class? We can talk after or take anyone's class and let me know how it goes. Because it's really important that you've entered into this space first. You've experienced somebody's teaching so that you're a little more grounded, and also you can make a decision that's better suited for you on how you want to move forward. I remember when, when, two years ago, right around this time I did this big call for teachers and there was a need for accountability in that request. There was a need to submit some kind of request that I made about your teaching style, your preferences, what align, what you aligned with in the values. And that was this huge filter. I mean a huge filter. So, people, people commented they were interested, they wanted to teach, but then only a handful of people actually shared why. And from there, I think your process was here's like a four week onboarding, come to classes, you'll get paid to attend.
Stay with it, you know, share your reflections. And then provided that all goes well for everyone, you know, you, you'll have a class. But it was a way to say, how do you feel in this space? What's working for you? What questions do you have? Give you time to digest that and then kind of move deeper in. That was for the teachers, that was a huge interesting onboarding process like two years ago. But the students are the same way in, in every class, the teachers invite a community check-in via the chat or by unmuting and sharing with your video on, or you have the option to pass if you're not in the space or you're not interested in reflecting on that check-in question. And I just got an email from a student that said, I've been attending for three weeks and I've been observing mostly during the check-ins, but this week I actually shared.
And I just wanted to tell you that I only felt safe enough in their words to share because I'd been showing up and just getting familiar with how things are done. And they were consistent in that way. And that really surprised me that I shared, but I feel like I know what I'm getting into now, and that's a reciprocity. That student took the time to come and kind of learn about us and then come again. And I think that's really important. It's really important that people focus value. Another quick example I'll share with you is one of the students wanted to teach somehow or be involved. So already a student and I knew already they were teaching but they weren't South Asian. And so, because I have a vision, you know, because our values are to gather in South Asian led teaching spaces, it was just really clear to be able to respond back to them. Like, actually I love this interest. I'm not sure if you know, but this is our vision, these are our values. Let me know if I missed something, but I don't think you're South Asian, and if not, I'm sure we can figure out some way to include you as a guest teacher in certain spots. But it just made that conversation so much easier. And their response was like, oh, I actually had missed that. Thanks for telling me. And we're able to move forward. And they're a guest teacher for restorative yoga.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah, I love that. Just very open call. And laying out of the vision and mission and values that allows everyone to buy in where it's not like kept secretive where it's only like I know it, a couple people know it and like, maybe you can figure it out and you can be a part of it. Or if I tell you where it's just very openly this what it, this is what it is. But then that makes me think about like sometimes I, I'm like, if certain yoga studios did really want to be like, this is only for white people they're like, this is our, this is our vision. And I'm like, I, yeah, that would be very interesting and mean just showing up in different ways with the white supremacy actually becoming out in the open. But I'm like, maybe it's better for it to be out in the open so we can actually see it for what it is instead of living in very insidious ways in every facet of our society. And yet we're not willing to be like, well, this is what it is. But now I'm on, I'm on a super tangent. What I actually meant to ask with that is in, in being a teacher and being a space holder and being a community builder, mistakes are going to happen. Conflict is going to arise. That's just a part of being human. How can a teacher share space holder take accountability? How can someone show up for conflict knowing that's a natural part of, of being a human and being in relationship? What does, what does that look like?
Tejal Patel:
You know, who I listen to a lot for guidance on this is Nedra Glover Tawwab like Set Boundaries, Find Peace, and they have another book called Drama Free, but also on Instagram they post these clips and they call 'em Ned's Nuggets. And I just love it because in terms of taking accountability, sometimes it looks like apologizing to someone but not being accountable to the way they respond. Mm. Not like having an expectation on how they respond to your apology. Maybe, you know, the way I would want a relationship to be in repair is if we both recognize actions that went awry. And so maybe the, somebody apologized, but then the other person also said, you know what? There's something I could have done differently too, and I apologized for my part in this. And in the future, I'll also be mindful, right? Having that three-part apology.
But I think knowing when that's necessary to do as a space holder is really important. It's really important to know when to take ownership of a mistake or grievance. Or even just know like, Hey, I up. This is what happened. And sometimes it can be so challenging. I think for me, in the beginning it was like, you know, says there was a tech issue in the beginning and class just didn't happen because of a tech issue. I would almost not want to share news around that because I felt so embarrassed. I felt so ashamed that that happened. And if I forgot about it, maybe that meant the other people forgot about it, which is just not true. So that's a situation which I've, I've learned like, just take accountability. People are left with questions you want to try and answer them and like just show up authentically. Happens, right? Like you're perfect as you are, but you could use a little work. And just keeping that in mind, like giving yourself compassion and grace. But what I've also noticed as a teacher and a space holder is that that can start to happen a lot. Not a lot. What am I trying to say? What I've noticed is that it's important to see it in a balanced way, like also extending that compassion and grace to other people and not just being one sided about it, because the other, the other side of that is true, giving others compassion and grace, but not yourself.
So as a space holder and as a teacher noticing that, yes, I bear a lot of this responsibility around presence, awareness, building around, showing up around paying people on time, around, you know, communicating when the system isn't working the way it's supposed to. So how can I kind of distance myself from being the, the thing that's the problem when it's really more about managing communication and expectations and offering action steps or ways to move forward. And I think the accountability really lands on the space holder on the teacher. But for Tejal Patel for example, because it's a organization where I hold the vision I think it's really important that I communicate the clear ways in which accountability can be offered. So maybe I'm not the one teaching, but there needs to be accountability from a teacher about something. If that doesn't happen, I use that as a learning to say, okay, you know what? Like I need to be more proactive about communicating the ways in which we hold ourselves accountable, providing examples, providing a structure.
Harpinder Mann:
I think what that also reminds me of is just acknowledging that mistakes are going to happen and we're going to fail. So, your example of like with tech issues being like, well, if I don't say anything, no one's going to notice being embarrassed about it. I find when we also own up to our that gives permission for others to own up to their and just be honest. And that's…
Tejal Patel:
So, that's so fascinating. I'm sorry to interrupt you.
Harpinder Mann:
No, go ahead.
Tejal Patel:
So fascinating to me because I've never made this link before. But people in the community, students in the community do ask me for things when or they ask me to like, help them through things when they, when things don't go their way or like, say finances showed up a certain way and they need help with their, with their membership. And now I'm sitting with this idea like, maybe it's because I have shown this example that like, yeah, things go unexpectedly sometimes here's some communication around it that it kind of opens a door for people to be able to be a little more vulnerable back.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. And I find in like owning up to our saying, hey, I've made a mistake. I find that makes relationships stronger. because then you're like, oh, this person is able to acknowledge that they make mistakes and mess up much like everybody else. And then I, for me personally, I'm like, oh, I can trust this person more. because they're not going to try to front or be defensive or not take the time to listen to me. Like, it just creates more of an openness where we can say, hey, this hurt me, this repair is needed. Can we talk about it? Can we move forward? And knowing that the other person is going to be receptive to that makes a big difference. It makes a big difference in being able to share different things. I'm thinking about examples in like more corporate workplaces.
And I think about my own example. I was working at a tech company when I lived in Australia and I had a manager who was just aggressive and inappropriate. And a couple folks all, all women would go to HR and be like, this happened that happened. And HR just wasn't receptive. Like nothing changed. And so much trust was just lost there until the point all four women quit and left the company at different times and I was the last one to leave. And eventually all five of us just quit. And that just is such an example of we're right, we're being told like, well, these are our systems and structures that we have in place. If there's a problem, come to HR, we'll help to resolve it. All five of us go at different times and it's not heard or listened to and no action has been taken so that that trust is completely lost and people just quit. They're like, well, we're out of here. And it's just, I feel like there's almost no point in being like, here's a system we have in place for making sure nothing bad happens or you're taken care of, but then there's no actual action to back it up. And I, I think that's a, and I think that also places so much on the person that's being harmed to have to come up and be like, this is what's happening. And then not being heard and listened to. Mm-Hmm.
Tejal Patel:
For Tejal Yoga, we couldn't say we're people focused if there was a blatant disregard for the people.
Harpinder Mann:
<Laugh>. Exactly.
Tejal Patel:
And I think that's a micro of the macro within yoga, you say, oh, we, we offer yoga. We're a place of authentic spirituality. But that listening and that practice only happens when a class starts and a class ends like that time in between. It doesn't happen outside the practice. I've heard so many horror stories of people going into take a class, but then as they're packing up, their teacher has left and they hear their teacher talking to another teacher and they're just talking or they're just speaking in a way that is completely counter to the way they just led that offering, that beautiful offering. And this phrase shows up for me in yoga all the time, which is cognitive dissonance. Mm.
So, you're totally aware of what the practice needs to be like. You have a basic understanding of philosophy, how it, how it helps people, and how it helps the world. And then you're faced with the practice that is completely different and it's just jarring. It's so jarring. And I think what people end up doing then is either they've fall into one camp or the other, right? They, they, they leave that space and they might go and have their own personal individual practice. They never share it with anyone, or they kind of let go of what they think the yoga is supposed to be because here's the space that's a space, so it must be an authority and they just do what they're asked to in the space. And then that becomes a really limited view and version of yoga. Which is what gets what we've seen replicated over and over and over in this modern yoga or the yoga culture in the west.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely. I think about cognitive distance all the time in the yoga space and in the spiritual space and just religious space as well, like actions just not matching up to beliefs. And I'm just like, wait, what's going on? Like, you were just saying this thing 20 minutes ago and I'm seeing you behaving in this way and it is jarring. And for me, the, the first time I saw it was with my own dad, and this is going to be all in the book, seeing just like this person that claims to be very religious and spiritual and then seeing the actions, I'm like, wait, what's going on <laugh>? What's happening? For me? It was just then like moving away from religion completely and then through yoga, coming back to, and I'm thankful to yoga for that, but that cognitive dissonance shows up in yoga all the time where it's like, this is what we believe and this is what we care about. And then the actions are just like, what, what's happening here?
Tejal Patel:
And you’ve just described, you've just described right, that experience with your father and you did one of those two things, which is like completely move away, explore your own path and, and wow, it's like everybody's happiness. You found that that path actually bridged you back to the religion that you were divorced from because of this cognitive dissonance. That's great. I think that's also the same question in yoga. A lot of people will come to me and say, well, what's the harm if I did, if I did practice this type of yoga? I don't even want to name names, but this specific type of yoga that you're saying is too gimmicky. Mm-Hmm. But it led me to where I am now. What's the harm if that's a pathway for some people? And it's not really the point, the point isn't the how, the point is about the person. Like I believe that person would've found their way. And I'm staying open to that potential and possibility that you would've found your way, but instead you went through a bunch of hurdles in the first place. That doesn't mean you have to justify those hurdles.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely. Yeah. I'm so glad that you framed it that way. because I hear the argument all the time of, well, the Asana, the studio was just an entry. Like people will find their way to, I'm doing quotes here, like real yoga. And so often what I do find is that they start practicing and it's the other route of what you're talking about. And they're like, well, I guess this is what yoga is. And they just stay there. They just stay with the Asana and they stay with whatever the studio is teaching and that's what they believe yoga is. And then that understanding of yoga gets spread out. And I think that's such an important distinction of, well, it's not the how, the way it's being shared. It's that person, that person would've found their way anyways. And do I wish from my personal experience that I, I didn't have that and I could have just blissfully for that first 18, 19, 20, 21 years just been really enmeshed in my like culture and religion and really was able to learn. I do wish that, I don't wish that I, I felt such like strife and like struggle and seeing, I was like, what is happening? Like, why are we saying everyone is equal? Why are we saying no harm? And yet I'm seeing these things. And that's kind of a connection between those two things that I hadn't, I hadn't really thought about. So I'm glad, I'm glad you brought it up. But as we wrap up the final question, I have is what change do you wish for in modern yoga?
Tejal Patel:
I really wish for anyone who like gives themselves the banner of yoga teacher or a person who teaches yoga, which is I'm leaning more towards saying that to operate from a place of yes. Because it really embodies this idea that there are some things that I know and then there's a whole other host of things that I don't know. And when I'm presented with an idea that maybe I've never thought about, or your truth that has never been mine that I don't jump to, no, that's not right. Or I don't accept that. I reject that instead of what I wish for, which is, oh, you know, that's really interesting. I'm going to take a beat and think about that. Or oh, that makes me really curious to know more. Or any other way you could respond to something that's new information to be a little more open to people. That gets us back to this idea that we're not identifying with whatever those words are. That person isn't just those words that they've shared with you. They're just not that attitude that they've shared with you. They're actually someone going through something just as you're going through something and they're at a different point than you because of course they are, we're all really unique individual beings. Having it the same human experience, but getting to that level of truth about it, which is, I'm I'm seeing you, we're not that different. We're both questioning things. We're both holding truths. Maybe I can just hold space for both of us. For those people who say, you know, I'm a yoga teacher.
Harpinder Mann:
I think that's a great place to end this conversation is a yes. And because it creates just so much more possibility. And as someone who has done improv and I love it, that's what we get taught. The yes. And then the yes and helps for conversation to continue, for relationship to keep building. And I think for us as yoga teachers, if we're in the business of relationships, if we're in the business of transformation just to disrupt or cut off things with a no or with a, I'm not willing to see you or understand that is diver you're using your word of like divorcing us from that real connection that we could have. So, I think this is a, a wonderful place to end this conversation. Are there any other final words you would like to say as we, as we wrap up?
Tejal Patel:
I just want to say thank you and it has been such a pleasure getting to know you more and you've taught at Tejal Yoga, you know, for two whole years now, which feels really special and even just this conversation. Really excited to read your book, <laugh>.
Harpinder Mann:
Thank you so much. Thank you for saying that. I'm so excited that we were able to have this conversation. I think there's so just so many like nuggets of wisdom in here and it's also just been such like a joy and a pleasure and a gift to be able to teach birthdays for yoga for two years. Like the students that come in and I teach Monday mornings at 7:00 AM I just, my week just starts off in such a like heartwarming, expansive way where I'm just like, y'all want to keep co-creating this container with me. Like how wonderful and beautiful. So thank you for creating these spaces. Like not only is it impacting students, but it's also impacting teachers. So I'm so grateful for you and yeah, getting closer since we're both in Los Angeles now.
Tejal Patel:
Thank you.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. Well thank you so much Tejal and thank you to everyone that tunes into this podcast. I look forward to the next one. So, thank you everybody, and I'll see y'all soon. Bye.