Episode 8: Decolonizing Yoga: Classical Roots & Spirituality with Dr. Neil Dalal transcript

Harpinder Mann: 

I am so excited to be chatting with Dr. Neil Delal. And we're going to hop straight into the first question on what does yoga mean to you?

Neil Dalal: 

Oh.. well, to, to me personally. You mean? Like individually… for me personally, it… there's a lot of ways right, to look at it, but I think for me, it's, first of all, it's a internal inquiry. Looking at myself. And this can have a broad range, right? Like a posture practice. You can be really exploring your body mindfully, et cetera. But then I think there's all these deeper aspects, which for me are profound of looking like, what is the nature of my subjectivity? What is the nature of my self-identity? And ultimately then it's an exploration of what is mind and what is consciousness under, like expressing through the mind. So, I'd say that that is the principal core of yoga for me. And then along the way, or in the wake of that inquiry come all the different practices, you know, specifically meditation and reflexive practices and contemplative practices, so forth and so on. That's my quick, in a nutshell answer.

Harpinder Mann: 

Thank you for that answer. I know in a longer course that I took that you had called Decolonial Yoga. You talked a lot about yoga being that self-inquiry and looking at who am I? What is the nature of reality? What, what is consciousness? And I know when I first found my way to yoga, that's what I thought I was going to be exploring. Like I was 19 at that time, just confused like, “What is my purpose for being alive? What is the meaning of life?” I came to yoga thinking like, “Oh, it's going to help me answer these questions.” And what I found was an exercise class. And I was like, “Oh, this isn't what I thought this is going to be.” So, I feel really appreciative now over the last many years of studying, finding teachers that know of yoga to be this and study it that way and teach it that way. And I also appreciated taking your course and, and learning it that way as this deeper inquiry, that exploration of also what is our mind, what is the nature of our mind, how it operates so we can move through, move through the world in a more meaningful way.

Neil Dalal:

Yeah, absolutely. It's all too often lost in the modern yoga scene. 

Harpinder Mann: 

Yeah. So I am appreciative of teachers like yourself that care about teaching in that way. And, and for those that most likely are not going to know, because I don't often talk about this. I'm taking a Bhagavad Gita course with you. And it's been so wonderful to move through each one of the verses and learn at a deeper level to also like, understand how to pronounce each one of the words correctly and take that time to chant it. And that's been really helpful to have, have that class as well. This kind of goes into my next question of then… with your path of yoga, is there a specific lineage in which you were initiated or you study? What does that look like for you?

Neil Dalal:

So, when I was in my early twenties, I, well, to go back a little bit, I, when I was relatively young, like 18, and I got into spirituality and broadly speaking in many different forms, and it slowly grew and grew on me. And, and I came to this recognition somehow—it’s a longer story—that this idea of oneness or non-duality was really calling me. And I was trying to figure it out. This is pre, you know, internet time, so just trying to figure it out on my own and explore different places and people and, and I couldn't really find what I was looking for. And then I, I moved to San Francisco, I was in California, and I met my first teacher there who introduced me to Advaita Vedanta. And immediately I was like, “Oh, this is what I've been looking for.” So, I am traditionally trained in Advaita Vedanta in the classical tradition of Shankaracharya, under Swami Dayananda Saraswati. So, he was a renowned teacher of Advaita. He passed away and you know, some, some years ago. But he… so I spent many years in India studying with him and other senior teachers in that lineage. So the lineage is Śaṅkarācārya Advaita Vedānta. So that's my training primarily.

Harpinder Mann: 

And in that training, were you taught like the intentions and goals of yoga in a traditional sense?

Neil Dalal:

Yeah, so I lived in a monastic context studying with monks and nuns, renouncers, swamis. And then, that is the real foundation of the whole inquiry is, is what… you have to be really clear. Traditionally, the ideal is you want to be clear about what is your goal and what is the means? What's the means in the end. We call the Sadhya, many people know the term Sadhana, but the other term is Sadhya—the goal of the Sadhana, right? And so, you don't want to just jump into lots of different  Sadhana practices without understanding like, how is this tied to the goal of yoga practice more broadly? And so, yeah, it was very, it was very clearly, well, maybe I’ll  put it differently. One doesn't really get into Advaita Vedanta on a deep level without having come to some clarity around the goal in the first place. And that goal is… maybe in the beginning it's a little ambiguous, but some kind of deep freedom, right? Some kind of happiness or freedom or liberation, Moksha, if you want to use the most comporable term. And then, and then in the tradition, you come to a greater and greater understanding of what is moksha according to this lineage, at least. There's different yogic lineages with different conceptions, but what is moksha? You know, why is it valuable? How do you approach it? You know, then you engage with different practices to that, to that knowledge.

Harpinder Mann: 

I love that pointing too, of knowing what your goal or intention is. Because I, I do find oftentimes a lot of people will go into certain things without necessarily knowing what their intention or goal is. And to have both the practices and the goal of what you're working towards is crucial, is really important. The question that came up for me is within that, within your lineage, I know you said different lineages have different understandings of Moksha. What was that understanding of Moksha and your lineage? 

Neil Dalal: 

Just to go back to your first point, I think it's so true that there's a lot of confusion around this means and ends. Because when we, especially in modern yoga, like you were saying, you, you came to yoga thinking about what is the purpose of life and so forth and so on. And then when you walk into much of modern yoga, I mean, it's, it's such a big vast world of course, but there's very different ideals, right? Is it physical health or, or physical beauty, like aesthetic qualities? Is it, you know, health and wellness, self-care, or, or is it getting into the, you know, more esoteric occult practices or is about meditation or about attaining mystical states? Like, there's such a gamut, and oftentimes it's sort of like a catch all, be all. Like, you do yoga and all these things are going to come, or, or only one. And it's not often clarified. So, I think the modern world of spirituality in general is confusing for the individual practitioner engaging it because it's not clear necessarily what you want. It's not clear necessarily what you're being given or the possibilities of what you're practicing will lead you to. And yeah, it's a little bit like walking through a forest in the dark.

So, for, you know, for Advaita Vedanta and this tradition thats coming out of the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita, Moksha is understanding the truth of yourself. Like, what is the fundamental ground of my reality, of my being, of my sentiency, and my experience? And where that takes you is a recognition that “I am the reality of all things.” That the consciousness that is manifesting through my experience at all times and all my cognition, all my experience, is actually non-dual awareness, which underlies all things, including the divine, including insentient, seemingly insentient objects, other people, non-human animals. It's all just this one consciousness. And in the discovery of that… in the wake of that comes with it a fullness, a wholeness, that liberation, which should we seek.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah. The way that I've also come to understand moksha is the liberation from the cycle of birth, death, rebirth. Is that another understanding of moksha from a different lineage?

Neil Dalal:

Well, that's also included. So, I think, you know, generally, I read this, I think we can approach moksha from different angles, right? So, there's a theological angle, which I would put rebirth in karma, rebirth or redeath, you know, in terms of some samsara, this cycle of rebirth is, it's really more about dying again and suffering again and being free from that process. We can take a psychological angle, which is liberation in this life because it's not really about the next life primarily. It's also about, you know, finding freedom here now that it's a present possibility at any time. So… and, and then there's like, maybe I could say epistemological angles in terms of the practice and, and the results. So, to take a simple example, if I've lost my glasses and I meet someone, I'm looking all over the house for my glasses, and then, you know, someone, a friend, a child, whoever says, “No, your glasses are on your head,” right? And, and now I've found them and I've found the freedom. And there’s the psychological aspect of relief, of discovering what I wanted to discovery, etc.  But to answer your question, yeah, re rebirth is certainly part of that because in this discovery of non-dual awareness comes a negation of my personal agency or my, my self-identity limited to this mind-body becomes eliminated in terms of knowledge. Not necessarily in terms of experience, but in terms of knowledge. And so with that, from a theological standpoint of karma and rebirth, there's, there's no place to pin karma to, right? It's, it's so that all resolves or dissolves so that for the liberated person, when their body falls at the time of death, there's no travel to the next birth or to the heavenly world, right?

Harpinder Mann: 

Yeah. As you were describing accessing that freedom in the now in this present life, I was reminded… one of the first times I went to India on my own, was my second job out of college. And I went to the Ananda Ashram, and I was going there on pretty much on like a consistent basis for a couple months while I was there. It was like the first or second class… I like, I'm taking an taxi or an ola back to my hotel. And I just felt this like, experiential sense of like, “Oh, I'm connected to everything.” And it, it, it felt like in this moment, “Oh, what I've been searching for from my whole life. Like, I, I found it.” It felt like this really big existential experience and I feel like my life has never been the same since. And I owe going to the Ananda Sangha and like, being a part of it and experiencing what I was like, “Oh, this is what I, I wanted to learn. Like, I wanted to learn what life is and practicing and like being in community.” Because I know sometimes when I speak to students or… and I work with like kids and teens sometimes, having that sense of, “Well, what does it experientialyl mean to feel interconnected or to access peace or freedom?” It can feel like a foreign thing to folks. And I know for myself in different ways, I have access that for myself. And I think about just yesterday receiving an email about not having a particular teaching engagement and feeling really angry about it for a couple hours and slowly making my way just, you know, allow the emotions to be and process through it. And then getting to a point where I was like, you know, well I have my faith in God, in Higher Power and that it's going, it's going to be okay. Like, I don't need to be so gripping around attachment, “I need to have this, what is it going to mean?” And I find in like different everyday life situations, these teachings bring a sense of freedom and peace. But sometimes that can feel foreign when there isn't that base level understanding of maybe the philosophy or the understanding of these things or the experiential feeling of that.

Neil Dalal: 

Yeah. I mean, it's amazing too that that feeling acceptance or at homeness or equanimity could feel foreign because on one hand it feels so natural, right? You feel at home. Like in this, in the way that when you see a kind act done or you feel a kind act or someone does one for you, there's this great sense of value and freedom and, and love or whatever, you know, is being evoked by that. And when we have, I think when we have experiences on that positive spectrum, it feels at home, right? That experiencing, that kind of inner ananda, that inner contentedness or satisfaction feels at homeness. And yet, and, and when we feel anger, things that feels more like a foreign thing that we need to get rid of, right? Or eliminate. But it's so interesting that feeling the positive is also alienating because we're not used to it or we're culturally conditioned not to expect it or to feel guilty about or whatever, you know, whatever it's evoking for the individual. So yeah, I think it, it is really a powerful practice too, within the Indian yogic philosophies of coming to understand that, being able to contextualize it, being able to access it and, you know, make it a more constant baseline. Like long-term traits, long-term disposition, the ways we're relating to ourselves and the world. It's a really beautiful aspect of yoga.

Harpinder MannL

Yeah. I mean, I am also of a Vipassana meditator and Goenka  talks about like anger and say, if you keep meditating, say you're angry about something for 10 days, and then as you keep practicing, then you realize now you're only angry about that thing for four days. And like slowly it starts to decrease over time. And I have found that experience for myself for something that would've really bothered me for four or five, six days and thinking about it, and maybe, and I know I have learned like silent treatment from my family, that's their way of expressing when they have something they need to say, but they're not going to say it. They're going to give you the silent treatment. And I realized like the way I've been conditioned with certain things, with anger. And through practice, a lot of that has weakened where I'm just not like that anymore. And I'm so grateful for these practices for allowing like me to see what is the nature in the way that I behave, move through the world. My mind handles things, sensations that arise and how can I loosen some of that conditioning because it's not actually making me a very grateful or kind or even like kind person to myself. But without these practices, I'm not quite sure where I would've learned any of these things. And I think that's perhaps like a travesty when I think about modern yoga, like practitioner goals, maybe only being focused on like the aesthetic or the physical where it's like, well, there's so much more, there's so much more depth there that we're missing out on if we're not looking to the philosophy or not looking at even that consistent practice.

Neil Dalal:

Absolutely.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah. And this kind of leads into my next question. And I know we talked a little bit in your lineage, what the goals are, the traditional goals. How do you see that as being similar or different to the goals in modern yoga?

Neil Dalal: 

Well, I guess it's always a little confusing to me. Like what are the goals of modern yoga? Not confusing. I think it's there's a lot of ambiguity and it's all, all over the place, depending on context and lineage and, and individual. because We're also living in this modern… modern yoga is contextualized in the world of modern spirituality in which the individual is really has this personal agency to create their own spirituality, which is beautiful in many ways, but it's, it's also so relativistic to the individual, right? So, what everyone wants becomes their yoga goals, right? So, if you want to be beautiful or you want to have a following, or you want media presence, right? All these kinds of contemporary things are coming up of like, including selling, branding yourself as a, you know, “yoga person” or, or status like, so those, I know that kind of sounds kind of critical, but that's tied in.

I think the majority of people doing yoga are… it's for, for physical wellness and some kind of, you know, self-care. And I think those, those are… I have no problem with those ideals, those goals, just that they're really different than the classical goals because I think self-care or wellness is so much more on the health side these days or on a therapeutic side. And there's a lot of psychological therapeutic aspects of yoga psychology. But it's generally instrumental to something more, right? It's not an end in itself. So yeah, I think of course there are certain contemporary yoga lineages or, or groups, communities that are, you know, pushing towards something that they identify as moksha. But on the majority bulk level of practitioners, it's—the goals are simply very different. The practices and the goals. Like we have something very, very different and new. Even if it's some continuities, it's evolved in certain ways from pre-modern or classical yoga systems. It is something distinctly modern in terms of practice and methods and goals.

Harpinder Mann:

This might be a big question, but why do you think that is?

Neil Dalal: 

That is a big question [Laughs]. Well, I think, you know, historically speaking, we have a really fascinating encounter between South Asia, and I don't like to use the word “West,” but you know, European colonial powers, put it that way, right? And in that there's so many changes to modern Hinduism, and there's so many changes then to modern yoga. And then as yoga transitions into Europe and North America, it's undergoing a whole new set of changes. And so, it's classic and moldable, and it's also hybridic. So, it's taking, you know, modern yoga, even in India in, you know, from the early 20th century onwards, before it became a global phenomenon. It's already shifting and changing. It's being secularized in certain parts. It's being medicalized in, by certain people or certain areas. It's being universalized in certain ways. It's in some cases being stripped of its religious, philosophical types of goals and practices. And so, there's all these shifts. And then when we look at it in the North American context, we also have the, you know, privatization of religion, for example, coming up, which is partly tied to secularization and then commodification and capitalism. And so we have this really interesting, you know, mix of political and economic and, and you know, also the rise of, of New Age movements, what we call the American Metaphysical traditions. And the, specifically in the, in the 19th century shifting our whole modern view of yoga. And so, a lot of what we find is this, this, this hybridized version, but as it moves forward, it keeps getting stripped more and more of the classical aspects or the Indian aspects. And so, we have something that is, I think, much more distinctly a New Age phenomenon or something that's been secularized into just a physical regimen.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah, I feel like what I'm hearing in that is there's just so many different factors and different systemic things that have resulted in yoga being what it is now. What's the—I don’t know if this is the right word—like danger or consequence or like, what gets lost in yoga being how it's taught now and perceived now?

Neil Dalal:

Well, I think many classical yoga traditions are still alive and flourishing. A lot has been lost, but you still have, let's say, you know, in my case, traditional Advaita Vedanta. It’s very much alive, especially in India. I do think, I mean, looking at the North American context, you… the whole view of yoga is changing, right? And so, to what degree that's—if we're talking about the danger of, is this an issue of preservation? There are issues. I think maybe another angle to think about it is, what is simply being lost for modern yoga practitioners in the process? 

And the possibilities of their practice, I think are incredibly stunted because either the deeper possibilities are… they're unaware of, or there's a scarcity of teachers who can engage that in a way that is a living tradition. You know, not just saying, “Well, this is the history of yoga,” or, you know, “This is what such and such text says,” like in a sort of academic way. Or oftentimes stuff is being, you know, classical te—ike you take the Bhagavad Gita, for example, or the Yoga Sutras. It's being read in completely new ways, which from my perspective is a distortion of the text's actual intentions. And so, if this is a misreading or misapprehension. And then, you know, in terms of the individual yoga practitioners, it's, it causes confusion or spiritual plateaus or going down sort of paths that the classical tradition would consider incorrect. So, I think that, you know, there, there's issues in terms of the cultural traditions. So, if we get talk going to like cultural appropriation and what does it mean for these traditions and how are they affected? There's, there's potentially issues for like diaspora South Asians of whatever, you know, the, in this case Hindus or Buddhists for example, and how their traditions are being reshaped in the modern yoga scene and then taken up in those communities that way, potentially. There's issues around, you know, desacralizing  the traditions or symbols or deities or various cultural, you know, forms or cultural artifacts. So, there's all, there's in many ways we can talk about problematic aspects from a moral standpoint.

Harpinder Mann:

As you were talking, it reminded me… I attended a yoga conference last year and I was really excited to go to this session on yogic philosophy and how to integrate it into your classes. And it was taught by a white woman who leads 300-hour advanced teacher trainings. And I go sit down really excited, she starts us off with an asana practice, and then we start learning. She gives us handouts. And her main thesis was, “Students love learning philosophy. And the way that you can teach it is just pick up like a Yoga Sutra translation/commentary or Bhagavad Gita translation/commentary. Read it for yourself, interpret it, and then teach it.” And I just remember sitting there and I was just like, “What?!” Like we get told, if you want to teach asana, take this training, take that training, learn about biomechanics and anatomy. And I was like, and here you are telling students if they want to teach philosophy, just pick up any book, interpret it as you see fit, and then teach it at the beginning of your class. And she was giving examples of how her students love it, and she gets more students that come back. I just remember sitting there, I was like, “I want to raise my hand so badly and say I disagree. I think you should be telling students, go find a teacher, go find a teacher to help you learn to study it, and then maybe you can bring it into class.” I didn't say anything though, and I just remember just walking away. I'm just like, “What was that? There's 30, 35 people in there learning from what we all think is a steeped teacher who teaches 300-hour advanced teacher trainings. And this is the advice that's being given out.”

And I think that also leads to that like dilution and distortion where we're just picking up books… and like, I have my worldview being raised in North America, like I have, and luckily, I was raised in a Punjabi Sikh family, so I have the base level understanding, but for folks that have a completely different worldview, you're going to place your interpretation on that text and teach it from that place, and it could potentially be wrong. And I just walked out, just shaking my head and I was like, “I should have said something.” I did not.

Neil Dalal:

Yeah. And that's a very common view. I've come across it many times as well. So sometimes in esoteric ways where people will claim, “II can read a verse in Sanskrit, not even in English translation. And my spirit guides or angels will tell me the meaning,” right? This is like, so this is like an occult interpretation. It comes out of, you know, we have a historical genealogy for these sorts of approaches, like from the Theosophical Society, right? So it's not a new thing. It's actually a relatively old, at least a century old, that kind of approach. And that's an interesting example actually, of the ways that American metaphysical traditions or occult traditions have influenced modern yoga in ways that are completely not like what you would find in the tradition. Because, of course, in the tradition, it's such a big responsibility to transfer the tradition with proper accuracy, whether it's, you know, from the ground of just chanting Vedas properly, right? But then when we talk about, let's say the book of Bhagavad Gita, the Yoga Sutras, which are the two most important texts in modern yoga's approach to classical yoga… whether or not that should be accurate or not, but… and, and you know, most people are reading translations, which I do an interesting project in my—I teach a course on modern yoga at my university and I'll have students take the earliest commentary by Vyasa, which is considered the most important commentary in the Yoga Sutras. And then they take a modern interpretation and they cannot even map the two commentaries onto each other. They're so, so different. So exactly what you're saying is right, like, you know, there's this ideology, it's part of the anti-intellectualism and the anti-traditionalism viewed as “dogma: that any classical interpretation is dogmatic. 

And it's also kind of laziness. And it also speaks to the lack of teachers who can actually teach, and then people who have authority creating this assumption that you can just do this and it's fine. And it's going to work and it's going to get positive feedback because students like that, they feel empowered to do it on their own. The interpretations are usually going to be some feel-good type of thing that students come in and feel good, right? Like, it's like a little positive thing in their day. Whereas just a side note that, you know, the yoga traditions don't shy away from things that don't make you feel good either. There's a little bit of that cult of positivity that that has influenced modern, a big part of modern yoga that is not the same. But yeah, so, you know, I spent years and years training academically and traditionally and like learning Sanskrit and this and that, and I didn't feel comfortable teaching. You know, even when my teacher gave me permission to teach, I was so like, “Oh gosh!” And even, I mean, you take these Gita classes, but I spend a lot of time preparing and thinking through and reading the commentaries and studying. And, and we only, you know, you've seen, we only do like one to three verses an hour, right? That's the speed and the depth of the traditional teaching. So yeah, it's unfortunate. And it's kind of saddening that, that that assumption is there. 

And you're absolutely right. I was thinking the same thing that, you know, people go into such granular detail in their Asana practice and do trainings and trainings and anatomy trainings and this training and that training. And it's this proliferation of different trainings you can do it for the bodily aspect. And then when it comes to, you know, I've had situations where I've done a teacher training and given like one talk on the Bhagavad Gita, and I've come across that student, a student from that who I'm pretty sure has no other background, you know, doing posts on social media or blogging or in the earlier days about, you know, this is how we interpret the Bhagavad Gita, this verse or that verse… how do you do that? So, this is also part of, you know, there's a bigger issue here also  to go into like a touchy topic of white ownership tied to cultural appropriation. This assumption that “yoga's mine or not owned by anyone, therefore I can defacto own it, interpret it, and instrumentalize it in whatever way is going to facilitate my personal goals.” I have a pet peeve about this because I spend so much time trying to figure out texts. I'm like, “How, how can you think you, how can you even just figure out from a translation first place? Like you’re already half gone if you don't know Sanskrit trying to read a Sanskrit text.” 

Harpinder Mann:

It's, I mean, it's just, it's really fascinating. because I think for me, it also speaks to when people come into yoga, teacher trainings come in wanting to be a yoga teacher and I'm like, it takes so long to understand, reflect, integrate, unlearn so much of this stuff that it's like to take a 200-hour training, think you know, everything, start teaching all these things... And a lot of the yoga teacher trainings have whole like, modules on the business of being a yoga teacher. And oftentimes, and in the research for the book, those like modules are longer than the discussion on the philosophy and the history. And I think it's just the way that folks are being taught and it's being asked down to them where it's like, “Oh, it's mine now, and I get to do with it as I want because I have the certificate.” And even for myself, I have times where I'm just like, “What am I teaching? What—like, I think I need to pause. I need to like go back and be a student more.” And I found myself for the last six, seven months, especially with writing the book, just taking a lot of pauses from teaching. And as I learn more, I'm just like, “Wow, how much I don't know.” And there's just like, so even in my studying for the last 10, 11 years, I am just like boggled by just touching the tip of the iceberg. And there's just like so much more. And it is interesting that conversation of white ownership where it does sometimes feel like, “Oh, I did this 200-hour training, now I'm the expert and now I get to say whatever I want, teach it how I want, and I have considered myself an expert.” And it is, it is very triggering. It is very triggering to see these things.

Neil Dalal:

Yeah. Or even if people still consider themselves not an expert, they, they have the platform and the credentials to position themselves as an expert, to present themselves as an authority. I don't think you're an, certainly an authority in, in asana practice after a 200-hour training or a 500-hour training. It's, you know, it's bizarre to me because—I mean, it makes, it all makes sense to me from an economic standpoint. I understand why it's happened. You know, teacher trainings are the cash cow for yoga studios. Yoga studios are in a tough, always in a tough time, especially the non-corporate chain yoga studios. And then as a yoga teacher, you're in an oversaturated market. You got to do everything you can. I mean, I don't even understand how people make a career out of yoga teaching unless they're have a big name or a huge social media following. And so you, you, you can, you need to do everything you can to brand market yourself in a way that you're going to stand out and get people in your classes and all that. 

So, I mean, that, that, it makes sense, but it's so deeply problematic. And I always… the example that always comes up into my mind is as I think about a martial art like Brazilian Jitsu, for those people who are, are aware of that, like to get a black belt in Brazilian Jiujitsu, traditionally at least, is a huge, huge endeavor with many, many years of, of training, you know, every day so forth. You know, so maybe it takes 10 years, right, of dedicated practice to get that black belt. Whereas a 200-hour teacher training is kind of like getting your black belt in 200 hours, right? Giving you the authority to, to teach, to get, you know, your Yoga Alliance credential, whatever all goes into that whole process. So yeah, it's really washed-out yoga, I think, because there's no standards. And now as you're saying, like I just came across a teacher training recently, which had nothing about philosophy. You know, most of the time, it’s like, “How do you brand? How do you create a social media profile?” You know, obviously all the practicality. “How do you run a studio?” You know, so now it's, you know, “How do you do that? What are business ethics, etc.?” And there's really no space at all for philosophy then, and I don't know what percentage of people are actually—you know, it's, it's sort of fueling, it's a reciprocal cycle because I think there's this elimination of philosophy. I don't even like the word philosophy, like self-reflection, maybe, but also the use of, of reason and logic. Meditation has been pulled out of yoga, and it's only come back in as mindfulness, which is also a bizarre situation because it's not necessarily yogic meditation anymore. It's just modern secularized mindfulness, which is not… also arguably very, very different than classical Buddhist meditation. And so, yeah, it's progressing in this way that is slowly distancing itself. And yet these texts come in, like, let's say, the Bhagavad Gita and doing this in the beginning of the class, interpreting it, it piggybacks on the cache value of this ancient Vedic, ancient yogic ideology, right? This, this notion, this conceptualization that what we're doing is what the ancients did, and this is what makes it so powerful. And so you can use the texts as a way to tap that power moving through you as an authority to the student, right? And so, it makes the student feel good, and it makes them feel like they're tapping into this ancient tradition. It makes you look the teacher look like an authority, and it creates—keeps the cycle going. And at the same time, ironically and kind of harmfully, it's actually distancing the student and teacher and modern yoga itself from the classical traditions, right? It's creating this subterfuge that you're actually delving into it, but you're actually in this simulacrum, which is, has very little to do with it.

Harpinder Mann: 

Yeah, I had been thinking about like seeing, going to that conference, seeing the teacher teaching in that way. And just a month before I'd been at an ashram in Mysore, and they had the asana teacher and a philosophy teacher and different people teaching different things. And I asked the asana teacher, “Oh, the philosophy teacher was talking about karma or talking about something like, what did he mean?” And the asana teacher looked at me, he was just like, “Why are you asking me? Ask him!” And I like, was laughing about that because I was like, “Oh, like they're kind of owning, like, ‘this is what I have studied on, so this is what I'm going to teach on.’” Like, him being the asana teacher who was like, “Why would you ask me? Ask the philosophy teacher, the one that's teaching it.” And I really respected that. I respected that owning up of like, “I'm not the expert on this. I don't know, ask that other person.” Where I feel here it's kind of this like hodgepodge of like, “I'm going to study a little bit of everything and then I'm going to pretend like I know it all.” Where it should just be like, “Well, I don't know. And maybe I am in contact with a different teacher who actually really studies this and like, go study with them.” And I think that would be a better system than either pretending or just like learning a little bit of something and trying to teach it. I just really appreciated that, that him just looking at me like, incredulously, just like, “Why are you asking me?” And I was like, “Oh, you're right now. Now I know.”

Neil Dalal: 

Yeah. And I think, I think that when you're around people who have deeply trained and studied these classical traditions, the amount one doesn't know becomes more apparent, right? But if you're not exposed to people who have studied, I mean, traditionally or academically for that matter, then, then you wouldn't know, right? So I think once there's exposure, there's a more recognition and there's just simply very little exposure in, at least in the North American yoga world that I'm familiar with.

Harpinder Mann:

In that course that I took with you, you covered decolonization and splitting it up into hard decolonization and soft decolonization when we're looking at yoga. Do you mind going into that a little bit for us? What that looks like, especially when we're talking about the way yoga is now and different ways in which maybe it could be practiced with more respect or what it would look like to actually decolonize yoga.

Neil Dalal: 

I don't remember how I was making that, but I'm just thinking about it right now. So first on, I would make a distinction between a couple things. First, we use the word “decolonizing.” We have to be a little careful because I think on, on one level, this is really… decolonizing is really more for Indigenous people. I think there's something to recognize there that like, you know, repatriating Indigenous land, et cetera, like that's Decolonizing proper, but there's, there is something similar going on if we can still use this, this term in, in the, in the other context,  like yoga. But I then I would want to just differentiate decolonizing from something like appreciating and respect, right? So respecting yoga, appreciating yoga, honoring yoga's roots, that sort of ideology—that's useful. And it helps undermine cultural appropriation as a corrective measure, but it's not decolonizing. Because I think of decolonizing as changing structure, like changing the structures where there's systemic inequality. And in the case of yoga, it might be more about… so let me just, one other side note, we can also talk about decolonizing in terms of like material cultural artifacts and immaterial cultural artifacts, right? So decolonizing material artifacts, like if a museum has the remains of an Indigenous community that they repatriate the remains to the Indigenous community, right? They don't hold them in the museum. When we're talking about immaterial cultural artifacts like a knowledge system or, you know, sacred narratives or rituals or things like that. We don't have ownership and they're not of a material way that you can just give them back, right? So that, some important distinctions there. But now honoring yoga, appreciating yoga is not changing structures. And another way to think about decolonizing yoga would be recentering “Indigenous,” by that I mean South Asian classical epistle back to the fore, right? So, if what we have in modern yoga is really more of an American metaphysical ideology, occult ideology sort of intertwined with some classical yoga ideas. And then, you know, you have an asana practice, which is, you know, under undergone so many changes in modern India, but also now under so many changes in the past 50 years… to me, I'm not sure where to draw this line between hard and soft, but if we're talking about ownership, which is a problematic discourse, you can't, like—if we are saying hard decolonization would be like giving ownership back to the classical yoga traditions, I don't think that's realistic. I don't think it's, I think it's very confusing because, you know, what is real yoga? Giving it back to who? Where, right? Who's giving back what? Like there's all these sorts of problems. 

But so, I'm thinking more when I'm approaching this in terms of like teaching and doing workshops and, and working with yoga practitioners, I'm thinking more on that softer side of, there are real actions to do, you know, like prescriptive actions. Like, you know, should you say namaste or not? Can you diversify the people who are teaching? Can you raise South Asian voices particularly? But then also, you know, these intentional returns, like what are the classical traditions saying? How do we understand the differences? At least to understand. It's not saying that, not prescribing that you should take the classical worldviews, but you should understand, one should understand the difference of what they're teaching and what they're not teaching. And I think there's a lot of knowledge. To me, my kind of biggest emphasis is not on what you should do or shouldn't do, but like what should, you know. What understanding can you come to you know, in terms of the classical at traditions, in terms of the  politics and power and, you know, racial dynamics and all these other things taking place. And, you know, in what ways are South Asian communities being excluded. Yyou know, how to make their voices heard, like, you know, all these different angles to, to take place. But one has to understand and appreciate it. I find what's happening more all too often is that people just want to a list of “what do I need to do or not do to be proper,” to put simply, right? It's like, “Okay, I'm not going to say namaste anymore,” or “I'm going to pronounce this word correctly,” you know, that, that kind of stuff, right? “I won't wear a, a bindi on my forehead,” or “Maybe I'll avoid getting a tattoo of a yoga sutra on my leg” or something. But to me that's, that's just sort of performative and important, but it's sort of empty. I feel like people actually have to understand more.

Harpinder Mann:

And I feel like I come across a lot of those folks that are looking for a checklist. I lead a Dismantling Cultural Appropriation workshop for a yoga studio twice a year. And the questions are always like, “So can I use Sanskrit in class?” “Can I end my class with namaste?” And I taught at Lightning in a Bottle a couple weeks ago, and we did a Decolonizing Yoga panel. And even there the questions were like, one person, “Can I end my classes with Namaste?” And it was a panel of three South Asian women, and we all had different answers. And it was, and no one was like, “No, you can't,” it was just like, “Well, if you, your intention is pure and you really know why you're doing it, like go for it. But also, like, here's the way that namaste in different communities is used.” And there was just more like reflection behind it. There was more like conversation behind it, just like, besides “yes” or “no.” And it's like, and I think it goes back to that self-inquiry of like, you need to put a little bit of thought into it. Like it's not just I hand you a checklist, then you're just like, “Yep, got it. Perfect. I go back to doing whatever I've been doing.” It's like, sit down self-reflect, self-inquire, and also look at the histories. Why are things the way that they are? And having that understanding also of like how each one of our own like privilege and power come into these situations. And I think it is just such a like, deeper question.

Neil Dalal:

Yeah, the prescriptions are important and as a yoga teacher, you know, people are trying to figure out, “How should I lead the class? What's the best way to do it?” And so I—it's totally understandable. I do think it's not about intention, though. I don't think intention is the pivot on this because intention doesn't minimize impact, right? So, I take it for granted that, thar the vast majority of yoga practitioners, yoga teachers, people who are gatekeeping in yoga are sincere, you know, they have good intentions. I'm charitable that way, but that doesn't mean that they're engaging in a systematic, systemic way of doing yoga, teaching yoga, presenting yoga. That is not deeply problematic. 

So, like with namaste, start your class with it. Why end your class with it? Or, I don't know. There's lots of ways to take that specific issue, but it's also a lot of catch-22’s because, you know, and, and there are some arguments one could put out that the ways people use like namaste is, or, and then pronounce it incorrectly as well, “nom-a-ste,” or whatever they pronounce it. That it's a kind of form of mockery of religious words that might be deeply problematic in that way. It's not just about saying it at the end incorrectly because, we, colloquially in most, at least North Indian dialects, it's used as like a greeting, right? Versus like “goodbye.” But there is this catch 22 because now if you eliminate everything, it's like, “Okay, I'm not going to say sun any Sanskrit word, right? I'm not going to say the asana names by their Sanskrit names. I'm not going to this; I'm not going to that.” Then, then the, the problem on that side is that now how are you honoring yoga's roots in that process too? Right now you're like stripping it of any kind of Indic, you know, connection where it's more secularized or like those yoga studios that even have on their, their sign, like “No Sanskrit here” that kind of—

Harpinder Mann:

Oh wow, I've never seen that.

Neil Dalal:

Yeah, I mean there, there are certain yoga communities that are, have zero interest in the Indian aspect and roots or philosophy or etc. They just want to go and do a posture practice. And so they don't want to, you know, they just don't want any of that. So that becomes a selling point for a particular community.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah, I've often thought about, thought about that catch 22 of… like, then it's losing any connection. And then it becomes further and further just an exercise class, an exercise program, and it completely just moves away from the true intent. And I oftentimes, I will hear people saying like, “Oh, well, asana has an entry point. Folks will make their way to the, like the deeper philosophies or other practices and understandings.” But if there's already communities that are ‘no Sanskrit here’ who have no connection, I think that's an example of like, well, where are they going to go? They're going to just go and stay at asana.

Neil Dalal: 

What I’ve found… yeah, I hear that too. And I, for a long time I thought, “Oh yeah, that makes sense, right? It's a stepping stone.” But what I've found, what seems more real to me in my engagement with these communities is that the people who are just focused on primarily on asana practice, let's say some kind of spiritualized breath movement practice, right? They're engaging maybe pranayama as well, that they're conditioned to really just think about yoga that way, or yoga's entanglements with kind of modern spiritual New Age ideas. And that conditioning to some degree, seems to obstruct them from engaging in those deeper aspects. So, there's a lot of talk, Yamas and Niyama and then, you know, to samadhi and like, “Okay, that this is yoga, but we're just doing asana practice.” And what I've surprisingly found this quite common, even in those lineages that consider themselves more tied to India, like Iyengar or Ashtanga, right?

Because even in those lineages, Iyengar and Pattabhi Jois don't teach, they didn't teach philosophy or minimally, right? And so, it's always like lurking in the background, even the right name of Sangha for Jois, you know, modern version. But you know, they, they explicitly restricted their teaching. I mean, this goes to the teacher Krishnamacharya himself, you know, he's, he's on record saying he was deeply devoted, you know, a pundit who had studied deeply in the philosophical traditions and lived an aesthetic life and lifestyle, et cetera. But he, his idea was, how do we universalize it? How do we popularize it? And so, you know, it's, it's partly going back to the 20th century Indian teachers who are also stripping yoga to popularize it. But yeah,, I've been surprised that these, like those communities, for example, who will chant mantras occasionally or like in an invocation to start the class or in the class, and, you know, they might have an altar with deities. They're much more like Indian-centric. And that to be a respected teacher, you should have gone to India, like to the Iyengars and Mysore to study with the Ashtange community, like a rite of passage, right? But there, there's, there's like an appreciation, but a general lack of exposure and a lack of interest, I think still there in the philosophy because they're conditioned just to be a hardcore posture practice, hardcore. So there has to be like a sea change of some sort to come back to that appreciation. I don't know how that would take place, but I don't think the stepping stone ideology is functioning, no.

Harpinder Mann: 

I had an interview with another South Asian yoga teacher, Tejal, and she made the point of like, “Well, the people that do say eventually make their way to more of yoga, whatever that might mean.” Like, that person was going to find their way anyways, like it was just in that person. Like it maybe had nothing to do with that ideology. “Well, it is just an entry point, a stepping stone. Like people will make their way.” Like that system, that structure isn't set up so people are going to make their way. It's just those people that do happen to make their way, that person was going to make their way anyways. Like, it has nothing to do with that ideology. It's just like an entry point and like people will make their way. And I was thinking about that for my own example of… I was intentionally looking for, wanting yoga as a way to deeply understand myself and not as exercise. So, did I find my way first to those studios? And I was like, “What is this?” And then kept looking till I found something. Yes. But I think there are people that will go to those studios and then they think like, “Oh, well this is what yoga is,” and they just stay there. And it isn't a deeper exploration or finding to find what it actually is.

Neil Dalal: 

Yeah, I mean, I understand them this, that they'll make their way idea, you know, like it's kind of like a karmic theory that they're destined to find it or that they pursued it in their past life. And so there's this openness and desire that, you know, and, and when, when you seek the teacher, the teacher will come, et cetera. There's something to be said about that for sure. And it's—but I think it takes so much work in modern yoga to do that because, because you're searching, searching and then everyone's claiming they're that authority, or it's easy to find the people who are claiming they're that authority. And if you don't have the background to understand… I mean, this, the same thing happened to me, speaking from my own personal experience. I had no idea what was what. And I was like, “Oh, this sounds cool. Like, let me study with this person. This comes cool, let me do this. Lemme go to this workshop or this retreat.” And, and there might be a lot of wonderful things you learn and grow in the process, community you find, and relationships and friendships and all sorts of wonderful things, ideally. But you're still pressed to find… like, still where do you find it, right? It's like you're in a supermarket of mediocre products. Where do you find like that, you know, the homemade, organic, whatever, you know, to take that illustration to whatever, where, where that goes. But… so I don't, I  don't disagree with that point, but I think it can turn into like a fatalistic sort of just accept, “Well, people will find if they need it.” That doesn't mean we shouldn't try and change it, or that we shouldn't, you know, try and forefront those, those possibilities for people who want it. So, I think the people who want it, if they, if they find it, will take it, if they're offered it, and the people who don't want it when they're offered it won't take it. But they have to… the offering has to be there somewhere, right? 

Going to India is not a solution either, because It's the same thing. I mean, this sounds critical, but from, you know, from someone who's classically trained and academically trained, you know, you go to a place like Rishikesh or like some, you know… they're just, they're recreating modern yoga there because that's what's going to sell, right? So, people go there and they're like, “Oh, I'm going to go to India.” And they just end up like doing their 200-hour teacher training in India. And it's, you know, it is, it is got a stronger religious element or, or sacred narrative element or, you know, you're exposed to some rituals and whatnot or, you know, you could go bathe in the Gunga River, whatever, you know, but… so, it's different, but the core content is not necessarily much different. So, they're still hard to find.

Harpinder Mann:

And a lot of those studios in Rishikesh also are like are 200, 300 hours are Yoga Alliance-certified. So, they're also basing their standards and training based off what Yoga Alliance has to say, Yoga Alliance being based in North America. So there is that like sort of cycle that's being created of like, “Yep, I'm going to go to India to study.” But then you're learning the standards that have been set here and it's all in that effort in the business of becoming a yoga teacher and not necessarily in deepening your own yoga study. So, for those students that are just like, “Well, I do want to deepen my study and I do want to find something I'm doing air quotes, like ‘real’ or ‘authentic,’” where do they go? What do they do?

Neil Dalal:

I don't know. I don't know. [Laughs] You know, it depends what they're looking for. I think to be, you know, realistic there, there's a lot of lineages of classical yoga that don't really exist anymore, right? So, you know, if we're talking about a textual lineage, like the Yoga Sutras, the Yoga Sutras continue to be incredibly influential through the history of, of yoga, but it's not a clear lineage going back to Patanjali that's still teaching that, right? There's probably some here and there. Like there's one commenter on Yoga Suta by Swami Hariharananda, for example. I think he still has a community. I forget where he is… where he was. But, that's hard to find in between there. And then like Hatha Yoga, you know, to what degree it's still living is a little questionable. But there's certain, you know, yogic traditions where you, that medieval Hatha Yoga rather than modern Hatha yoga.

And then, and then you have like, you know, classical traditions like Advaita Vedanta or different Buddhist traditions, you know? So, you know, Tibetan Buddhist yoga, for example, has very strong lineages. That whole world is thriving and flourishing for various reasons, despite all the issues they've had being in exile. Yeah, I don't know, it's a good question. Like I can, I can only really speak to Advaita Vedanta and I think there's, you know, several lineages that have maintained the classical tradition, which is, you know, by the way, it's interesting that the, the majority of yoga people when they think about yoga philosophy, they're thinking oneness, some form of oneness, whether, you know, interconnection or they might not know the real distinction between oneness versus non-duality, like a stronger oneness. But there is this sort of generic idea that yoga is about uniting and coming to oneness. So, it's actually a very Vedantic position more broadly speaking than, than what you find in the Yoga Sutras. But yeah, it's a tricky one. You know, where to find and where to go.

And, and I think the other problem is that it's also very difficult to find teachers who can translate for a Western audience. because if you, you know, you find someone in India, like some, let's say some monk, swamis and there, you know, teaching style might be very different in general from like an Indian pedagogical approach versus a more kind of engaged, open approach you'd find like in modern university system here.Or, and/or it's so deeply intertwined with religious culture, which is beautiful and some people love that. But then a lot of people, it's going to feel very othering and foreign. I think there's a healthy aspect to that. I think just one little side note, I think in modern yoga, people just want to go into what feels really good to them. And that's sort of recreating their own wheel of spirituality. They're not often going to be confronted with the spirituality that's foreign, but they don't want to be, right? Because it's off-putting and, and alienating. And especially as a yoga teacher, you want that authority, right? You want that kind of ownership, that “I am embodying this tradition.” So, then you go to India or you go into a traditional context and you realize like, “Oh, this is very different and a thought,” or “I don't understand what's going on.” Or, you know, “What do I do when I walk into a temple? What do I do in a puja, right?” I can't just do whatever. And there are yogis, Western Caucasian yoga practitioners who are engaging in rituals, but they don't know how puja has done in India necessarily. They're kind of recreating, just creating their own kind of neopagan rituals in a kind of Hinduized context. But yeah, so there there's also this problem like teachers who can  connect and sort of have a good vibe in pedagogical connection with the students and bring them into that world in a way that is not alienated. So, I don't have a good answer.

Harpinder Mann:

I think that's a good answer. And because I think it's a good answer in just like the honesty of it. Because I feel like in the last couple years as a South Asian yoga teacher, sometimes I get handed the mic of like, “What do we do?” And I'm just like, “I don't know, like four years ago, no one cared about me.” Like all of a sudden now, like people are like, “You're South Asian, you're a yoga teacher, we want you!” And I'm just like, “Okay, like, let me look into these things.” And I have found the best answer sometimes is just like, “I don't know, and I'm just as much like trying to figure it out as everyone else is and like, I deeply care. But that doesn't mean like, because I was born into the body of a South Asian woman and like also born and raised in North America that I have the answers.”

It just means that in the last couple years, people, some of it performative, some of it performative, like now want to be like, “Well, I'm an associated with a South Asian yoga teacher, so we can continue like operating just as we are.” And so, I just, I do appreciate just the honesty instead of being like, “Well, I think this, this, this and this.” Although at times sometimes I do feel like I have to be like, “Well, you can do this, this, and this.” And it's like a platform that is being shared and given but sometimes it does feel a little performative from some of the organizations that, that do reach out to me.

Neil Dalal: 

Yeah, it's really interesting to see change that's happening. So, it's, I mean, it's positive in many ways, right? That South Asian teachers are getting a voice, that they're being appreciated. You know, we can be critical that it's like a token exchange or it's, you know, partly to demonstrate their own progressive wokeness or, you know, to change their status and getting students. And there's that other side of it. But it's really fascinating to me that you have specifically like second generation South Asian diaspora. Like me, I don't know about you, but like, you know, my parents came from India, but I was born in the States. And so, you know, as that first generation born and raised, or second generation, you know, Indian American, when I go into a yoga studio, there's often this expectation that I know stuff. And that's weird because if I didn't have my background, I would know nothing. Like prior to actually studying, like, okay, I was raised in a Hindu family. There's a certain level of, you know, comfort and understanding that comes with that, being exposed to different things or reading, you know, some texts or some narratives, Puranas and Mahabharata or whatever. Like there, there's this and that, right? But I really didn't know much at all. And my parents, you know, in certain ways, like they've embodied it and they know so much. And then in other ways they don't know anything, like how to explain stuff. Like, “Why do we do this in puja?” “I don't know. That's just the way we do it,” you know? Or you know, “You say God's everywhere, but where is God? Everywhere, How? How, like, what does that mean everywhere? Why don't I perceive God in that way?” Right? “They're like, don't ask so many questions.” 

Just, you know, so, so it's a tricky thing. The this new wave of South Asian teachers who are, who are gaining a lot of sort of popularity or status or whatever, whatever it is. And, and many of them, their exposure is western trainings, right? 200-hour, 500 hours. And maybe you say, okay, you know, my grandparents taught me this and that, but, and there are those grandparents that really know tradition. But I think, I think of most of our grandparents and our parents as holding religious culture seamlessly, like born and raised in it, knowing the holidays, knowing like what foods to make and, and, and has so much knowledge that I still don't have, like my mother knows way more about that stuff than I ever will, but they don't have yogic training or their yogic training is primarily just asana and pranayama as well.

Like, it's like, it was like gym class for them in, in high school or elementary school. And so, they don't know what the Bhagavad Gita is really saying, or, or they'll refer to like Gandhis or someone else's commentary, like a modern commentary. I'm like, no, I, I didn't realize it when I was younger. I'm like, that's a, that's a modern political commentary, which has very little to do actually with the classical tradition itself. So yeah, I think it's a, it's an interesting position that South Asian teachers are being put into. And I think it's actually quite interesting for them specifically to find yoga, to find philosophy teachers. Like living my, when I say philosophy, I don't mean just what does it say? I mean, like the living tradition. because It, it's, the whole idea is it's a, it's a, it's a communication, right? It's not, not just theory. It's a, it's like a, it's a, it's a communication that opens one's eyes to these, to these deeper understanding of yoga. So, yoga, yeah, it's a, it's an interesting world out there.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah, it's fascinating. And I'm glad, I'm glad that South Asian yoga teachers are finally being recognized and invited in. And I think there's a lot of positives to that. But I think there is still, like, it doesn't mean South Asian yoga teachers know everything. There's still like a lot of nuances there. So it is, it's a very much an interesting position to be in. 

Neil Dalal:

I'll just say like, so when, when I, when I stepped into traditional Vedanta, it was pretty mind blowing to see how vast and deep and complex it is on so many levels, textually, philosophically in terms of practice, in terms of history, in terms of, you know, religious culture, the, the psychology of it. And, and so now I've dedicated the past 25 years or so, you know, full time to this, and I still look to senior teachers, and I'm still mind blown like… what they know, you know? And so, I make a big distinction with traditional training, and we see this with all the Indian traditions, right? Like, you can go into classical Indian music or like some form of classical dance, and how long do you spend, right? You, you want to study Bharatanatyam, what are you doing seven to 12 years, not hobby time, four hours a day, seven days a week or whatever, you know, they're training, you're living like an apprentice for all those years.

Neil Dalal:

And only then can you do your first public performance, right? To sort of, as your first step into being like an expert in some sense. And you're still not an expert, right? And so, I think it's, it is so interesting to like, when, when, when, when I think about the Indian traditions, classical traditions, not just yoga, but broadly speaking or, or you, you want to become someone who makes, let's say the, the murtis, right? The, the deities for the temple, right? You'd have to apprentice that for so long, get everything just right. Just the, the perfection and detail across the board is, is astounding. And, and if you think of the yoga traditions in many ways, being the religious, you know, epitome, like the highest level of practice and study that everything else is actually geared towards, like you can listen to classical music.

Neil Dalal:

And for example, there might be an amazing amount of Advaita Vedanta moving through the, or yoga philosophy, moving through the music in theory or in lyrics, and or you listen to the, to the mantras of puja, so forth and so on. So, or, or the theater and dance and other, other things. So that level of study is really necessary. And so I, I make this distinction that, you know, if someone doesn't have a traditional training, they're not, you know, they might know a lot, but, but there's a distinct difference what they can provide. Yeah. It's not also, it's not just what, you know, it's, it's learning pedagogical practices. So how do you teach, how do you communicate this stuff? How do you teach it? Like, like what order do you teach things in? You know, how do you, how do you engage students in ways that, that bring them along into that knowledge? When, when, like, when, you know, to tell a student not to do something. I think there's a lot of, also, when you get into the spiritual aspects of yoga, there's a lot of dangerous practices going on that I think are destabilizing individuals in many ways. 

Harpinder Mann:

What are some of the dangerous practices that you're speaking of?

Neil Dalal:

Broadly? Well, one, one area is in like modern versions of tantra, Kundalini practices, things of that sort. Where I think just generically speaking, even in the classical traditions, there's all sorts of potential issues. One falls into doing those practices and, and so people approach it without proper guidance. And they might be doing something that which is not tantra. Maybe it's like sacred sexuality or something like that. Or maybe they're engaging a more traditional [lineage] like tantra, or I'm trying to awaken their kundalini or something like that. And they have these, these experiences that might be profound, that are extraordinary and mystical, but then they're having migraines and insomnia, and there, you know, they're, they're feeling very ungrounded and they can't, they, they can't focus or they can't relate to people properly. Like, so there's things like that, or maybe not as, maybe not as dangerous in that way, but you know, this, this hyper focus on meditation could be problematic, trying to have like cessation of mind or some kind of samadhi.

And so, there's dark sides to that. Especially because people are engaging without understanding the philosophical context. So, people think, I'm just going to meditate hardcore. I'll go to a retreat, for example, and I'll do meditation eight, 10 hours a day for a week or two weeks or three weeks. And that's going to, like, it might be profound. It may be incredibly painful and destabilizing. So just to give you an example, people experience something like derealization, which is a term for when you, you, you, the world starts seeming unreal or deindividuation, where you start losing your sense of self and in a context where there is no context, philosophical, I keep using the word philosophical, it's not quite capturing, but like the living tradition of holding you and bringing you properly into those experiences. That's not there. An experience like derealization or deindividuation can be incredibly painful and frightening because you don't understand it, what's happening, right?

People might not have prepared you for it, like, you know, like the question I retreat that can happen, right? And, and you have some minimal, you know, interaction with some of the leaders, but they might not be trained to, they might decide well keep meditating, for example, and that might not be the right thing to do. Whereas if you were deep into understanding Buddhist theories of emptiness or advice and theories of non-duality or something like that, you might have a very different context for understanding that experience and how to hold it, how to process it, when to let go of it or how, you know. So yeah, that there's that, and then there's this, there's a lot of other stuff that I find problematic that's read as yogic, like the law of attraction, for example, and people thinking I'm just going to, you know, make affirmations and but end up pursuing, let's say, material ends or narcissistic ends or immoral ends. And so there's, there's a lot of confusion coming there too, like of the lack of an ethical guideline in relying on your practice.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah. Thank you for sharing those examples. I know I have students reach out and this has happened a number of times asking me, I want to learn Kundalini yoga. Where can I go learn it? I'm just like, why don't you just start with yoga? Like, why do you need to hop straight into trying to awaken your kundalini? And I, I never give recommendations, so I don't have any. I don't, I'm like, there's nothing I can refer you to. What I can refer you to is find just a good yoga teacher, and start there instead of hopping straight into trying to awaken your Kundalini. And into those more, I don’t know if I want to say extreme practices, but those practices that would require, I think, someone to be on the path for a long time and to have a teacher and not needing it to be something you're not practicing at all and all of a sudden you're just like, interested in awakening or Kundalini. Go ahead.

Neil Dalal:

It's, I understand it's a natural place to go for yoga practitioners because for a couple reasons. First off, you know, if you look at the history of Hatha yoga in the medieval period, it's deeply tied to, to kundalini and energetic practices, subtle body work, the, you know, we call the physiological winds, the subtle winds. It's the same in Tibetan Buddhism, right? Vajrayana Buddhism. And then, and of course there's this whole interaction, cross pollination, historical, you know, tapings from Shiva, tantra traditions dealing with Kundalini and other kind of subtle energy stuff. And then, and then modern yoga is so tied to the occult, at least certain communities, right? And so, when you're looking at those American metaphysical traditions and the cult traditions or, or neo-pagan traditions, there's, there's a lot of interactions right on this, on the, on these kinds of energetic levels.

And maybe additionally, there's this close interaction between energy healing now, like chakra work and, and reiki and things which are modern, also modern phenomenon or not, there's no chakra healing in the classical tradition. There's no, at this state, there's… you don't find that anymore. And it's been totally revamped, you know, in, in this modern period of psychologizing the chakras and other things like that. So, so if someone has these exposure to things like that, it's kind of natural. They're like, oh, kundalini, this is it. And, and it, and here's maybe going back to that idea of, you know, if, if someone has the calling, they'll find it. Well, this might be an example of where that potentially goes wrong, where someone has what we call moksha from this desire for liberation. We all have it, but someone has tapped into it in a way that they're seeing it more clearly. Now they're looking. And the most common thing you'll find in modern yoga on the spiritual cult side is as a practice, right? Yoga Sutra and Bhagavad Gita in generally just taught in a very conceptual pedantic manner. Like yoga sutures said, there's eight limbs, Yamas, Niyamas, and so, and this is this and this is that, blah, blah, blah. Whereas now you can jump into Kundalini practices and you can actually go to a workshop, you can get a certification, right? You can go to the—to Yogi Bhajan’s community…H3O? 3HO?

Harpinder Mann

3HO. 

Neil Dalal:

Or something like that. Or you know, Siddha Yoga, you know, there's some other communities that are, that are teaching it. I am not really in that world. Like, I don't know how to exactly judge what is authentic. Let's use that—problematic term itself, but what is traditional tantra? I think historically the transmission of tantra is pretty broken coming out of, of Shiva non-dual tantra at least. So you have certain communities like, you know, north India or in Bengal and you know, different tantric communities, but I think it's very hard to find what is traditional tantra. And it's completely been intertwined with now with like sacred sexuality and much more titillating forms of tantra. So, and, and this is where, where the, the individual agency of modern spirituality becomes a problem because people think I can just do this on my own. Like, I'll read a book on tantra. I don't need a teacher. Like I don't need someone to interpret the Bhagavad Gita. I don't need someone to explain to me, you know, tantra practice. And so I'll sit and, you know, do these practices.

The thing is, if you, if you don't believe in all this stuff, then I don't think you would bother doing it. If you do believe in it to enough to actually go to be disciplined about it, you should also recognize that it's got serious consequences in the tradition. It's clean. There are serious consequences. Like the, the most important thing in Tantra is having a teacher right off the bat, right? You don't do, there's no tantra without a tantric teacher. So, but even then, you know, like, I mean, there's, there's recent, some recent literature discussing, you know, critiquing the Yogi Bhajan, for example. So do they constitute that teacher or not?

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah, I did a 200-hour kundalini yoga teacher training as taught by Yogi Bhajan back in 2019. And I found it to be, I mean, at that time it brought me back to Sikhism, so I'm thankful for that. But it was now in like the last couple months of doing research and seeing all the things and those, those things started coming out maybe like a year after I'd finished my training. And just like how problematic and the abuse and hearing what Yogi Bhajan was doing. And also, just the training itself, like, it's like different Hatha yoga techniques intertwined with Sikhism. So, there are people that are chanting, like Satnam, waheguru, you close the class with Satnam. And I, for me, I, I stopped practicing and I stopped teaching within a year. So I was just like, this just isn't sitting right with me.

Harpinder Mann:

It doesn't feel, again, air quotes here, like “authentic” or “real.” And I, I stopped, I was like, this is just, doesn't feel good to me. But I actually just went to a class yesterday, a yoga nidra class, and the teacher is a Kundalini yoga teacher, as taught by Yogi Bhajan. And so in her yoga Nidra class, she's having us chant satnam, and do some other things. I was like, oh, I haven't done this in a while. And it was just interesting to come back in contact with that. But it is problematic.

Neil Dalal:

Really interesting. I mean, there is a history of, of medieval Sikhi yoga, engaging, you know, classical Hatha yoga practices and Hatha yoga's, classical Hatha yoga is really interesting because it's non-sectarian for the most part, right? So that you could be, Buddhists weren't really around South Asia at the time, but you know, you could be potentially Buddhist or Sikh or, or Hindu and, but yeah, I guess this is not my area. I'm not doing any of this research, but, but I think, and I haven't read this in a while, but I think that the history is that Yogi Bhajan is his teacher, I'm forgetting his teacher's name, but sort of lifted it from his teacher and then like recoded it and, and Sikhism and you know, kind of created his own thing. And then there's the other issues, whatever scandals involved in that history. But yeah, that's another point. I forgot what this, oh, but also, Yoga nidra itself is a modern phenomenon. So now there's an article out by Jason… I think it's Jason Birch wrote an article and it, it has elements of classical stuff, but put together by who was the Sivananda student who started the… I’m spacing the name, this famous yoga center.

Harpinder Mann

Vivekananda? 

Neil Dalal:

No, no, this is later. It'll come to me.

Harpinder Mann:

Okay. Is it with a V? I don't know why—

Neil Dalal:

I’m forgetting—it's in Northeast India. It's in Bengal, but one of some Shivan and students started it. There's also been a whole, there's a lot of good books they put out as well on like tantra yoga, but the, the stories that, sorry, I forget. I'll, I'm sure I'll pop right into my mind as we…

Harpinder Mann:

<Laugh>. You can email me after and I can put it in the show notes for folks that are interested.

Neil Dalal:

I think Jason Birch has argued that, that he's, he developed yoga nidra. and there are these elements of yoga nidra you can find earlier, but it's a distinctly modern phenomenon. The, the way they go through the body relaxation, that's not to dismiss its efficacy, right? Just because something's not classical doesn't mean it's better or worse or not effective. It's just that we, we live in this interesting world of yoga where everything is assumed to be old, like surya namaskar the sequence, right? Or, or yoga Nidra or contemporary Kundalini practices. And much of it is has, you know, has elements of the past, but it's been reformatted for the present.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah, that was one thing I was really shocked by when I was working on the book where I, I just imagined that it was these yogis in caves doing sun salutations in the asana practices. And as I was doing my research and I was like, oh, no, it isn't like that, but I feel like that's, even with years of study, I was like, whoa, it only took the last like eight months to realize that it wasn't, or actually taking your course. I was like, oh, it's actually not like that. But that's the understanding that I had for so many years. And it is very interesting.

Neil Dalal:

I mean, we do think there were, I mean, by the medieval period where texts like the Hatha Yoga Pradipika were written, so let's say by the 14th, 15th, 16th centuries, and there, there, there just does seem like there were yogi yogic hermits, you know, practicing asanas in various other Kriyas and purification practices, you know, in by their hermitage, like in the forest. And so, it's not, it's not that that image is incorrect or like that there is a sort of archetype of, of that yoga practice. And we don't really know how far back asana practice goes. There's a lot of, you know, we have textual histories and James Mallinson is the, the best-known scholar really engaging this, this textual history. And I think, and we have some, some temple sculptures and, and other things we find. So this goes back, you know, maybe a thousand years, and it may go back a lot older.

Neil Dalal:

We just don't have a clear textual record for any complex beyond different seated and prone postures. But it's quite possible that ascetics was developing various embodied practices like, like posture practice quite, quite earlier. So, and, and it's always changing, you know, there's a proliferation of asanas in the medieval period. There's, and, and then in the modern period, many more, you know, complicated asana and, and different sequencing. And you know, there's some people think that there, there wasn't vinyasa kind of flow sequences, but then there's some evidence to suggest there was. So, there's, you know, there's still a lot to be known about the history. Like it's a relatively young field, really. So, the majority of research has come out on the past 20 years, like modern yoga. I mean, yoga wasn't a field of study. Postural yoga is a relatively new field of study in the academies. So, there's still a lot to be, to be done figured out.

Harpinder Mann:

I have final question as we begin to wrap up is what is Yoga's vision for human thriving. for human success or fulfillment? And how is that different from perhaps like our modern society or what capitalism thinks humans should be doing and thriving?

Neil Dalal:

Yeah, one way to think about this is there's a, there's a traditional way of very famous way of breaking down human pursuits. The four major kind of types. So the first is Artha, which is basic security, right? So that can include financial security, like be where to draw the lines is unclear, but some basic financial security, you know, food, shelter, that kind of stuff. Maybe we include other things like having community and friendship and whatnot, or having some level of self-respect or something we can maybe add in more there. So, security, then Dharma, right? So, your moral obligations, ethical, moral, social ritual. There's a kind of a world of different, sort of ,obligations that you're supposed to fulfill for the, for the good, for the greater good. And then there is desire, like what we call Kama. Not any desire, like not, not so different desire than like desire to eat, to survive, but desires that are, that are you know, optional.

I want a car, I want this, I want, I want to buy this thing, or I want, I want to have this experience since. So, let's say the majority of our life we're, we're working, everything we're pursuing is within those three, in some way, it's producible to those three in some way. And then we have this fourth, which is moksha. And that's really the yogic pursuit is Moksha. So, I would say the, you know, if, if you really want to, if a yoga practitioner really wants to think about, is my goal a yogic goal? They, the, the pursuit then is to parse out why am I doing what I'm doing? And just because you're pursuing something which is explicitly yogic, doesn't mean it's a yogic goal. So for example, if I want to pursue posture practice, and it's simply to be fit or beautiful or flexible, that's not really a yoga goal. That's a kamma, right? That's a desire. It might be a healthy desire, but it's just a desire. Or I want to do yoga so that I'm able just to be able to move without pain. Maybe that comes down under basic security or something like that.

So, or, or, or to take something like something on esoteric side. Like I want to do yoga to gain yogic powers, like what we call the siddhis. I, I'm going to develop this ability to read people's auras and chakras. There's no word for aura in Indian context I'm aware of, but this sort of idea, right? So then, so now you have to ask, well, why am I doing that as a yogic practice? Or am I doing that because I want power? Right? And power would be a different goal, goal of yoga. And some scholars might say, the goal of yoga is power, but I don't read, read it that way. That's a very reductive and functionalist reading. So, if we say moksha is the goal of yoga, of course there's going to be different ideas of what moksha is, what is freedom, liberation but to me, you know, it has to be instrumental to that in some way to be a yogic goal from a, from a classical standpoint.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah, sometimes the question I think of here in terms of like, capitalism is like, when is enough? And this like constant seeking and desiring and how to kind of like rein it back in. Because when we're thinking about, when I think about capitalism sometimes just like rampant material consumerism what would yoga have to say about them?

Neil Dalal:

For the most part, yoga's going to be incredibly critical. I mean, hugely critical, I mean we could find exceptions, but I think the bulk of classical yoga is going to be hugely critical of, of, of engaging capitalism with the clinging involved of the ways we engage capitalism, right? Just like having, having a material. There's a lot, I mean, capitalism's complicated and it is sort of a distinctly modern phenomenon in ways we think of capitalism now. But even just, let's say, just talk about materialism, whether it's physical materialism, like the pursuit of physical things, or the pursuit of power, or the pursuit of respect or status. You know, obviously wealth is the obvious, the big one. And, and yoga is by and large dedicated to an aesthetic worldview of letting go. It's not, not that you necessarily have to actually get rid of your possessions, but that you shouldn't have attachment to your possessions, right? So, attachment is the getting and the holding. Actually, another word for yoga is the in a, in a critical way, yoga is the, the acquiring of something, right? That kind of union. And then maintenance to sustain that acquisition, which is called Shama yoga and Shama.

And that is a, a form of suffering, right? So, seeking to acquire something, there's suffering involved in trying to get something, right? Because you've already projected your happiness onto the goal, onto the object or the, this experience or the power or whatever. It's, and then, and then everything becomes either an ally or adversary in the process of obtaining that, whereas everyone's either an end, they're good or bad. And if you get it, you're happy for a little bit, but then you become sad because it loses its shine or whatever you get gets diminished or damaged, or you're fearing how, how are you going to hold onto it? Right? Like a politician getting power now they have to hold their power. It's very stressful. It's another cause of suffering or, or you don't get it in the first place and now you've failed and you're suffering, right? So, across the worlds of yoga, Hindu, Buddhist, et cetera, Jain, Sikh, this idea of this sort of twofold aspect of Raga/Dvesha, like the craving for something to get, or the craving to get rid of something you're averse to, make that aversion is the cause of our suffering.

Failure for frustration, anger, you know, hatred when someone's getting in the way of what you want. And so, so from that level, it's, it's not, yoga's not necessarily saying you shouldn't pursue anything, but that you, you can, you are, there's a possibility to pursue things with equanimity. A lot of pursuits would fall away if you're not projecting your happiness onto the outcome in the first place, the situation intended situation, some things would remain to pursue, but then you don't have to be attached. So, when you don't get it, you're not suffering. And in the wake of that, I think, you know, this, this whole importance of, of morality and ethics in the yogic path flows from that in part because in, in two directions. So bi direction flow, so first engaging more moral pursuits, or let's say altruism, compassion benevolence, non-harm, ahimsa, is going to clear your mind, right? It puts you in a, a mental dispositional state that is healthier for any yoga pursuit and for being in the world and relating to people. And, and of course you're karmically it's good for you too.

And then the more you understand, the more wisdom, I mean, yoga's wisdom, right? So, the more wisdom you have and, and the less you're, you're projecting your happiness onto particular outcomes and not trying to control the world to bend to your will in that way, the more, the more that ethical freedom will take place as well, right? So, you actually have a, it, it's a mutually collaborative, reciprocal kind of practice that you gain more wisdom, you become freer in the world, you gain more capacity to be moral, to be loving, to be compassionate, et cetera. And that cycles itself. So it's like shifting that whole trajectory and capitalism, materialism, consumption falls away in that process, right? It's, it's doesn't, it loses its value. And so, to whatever degree modern yogis or, or modern spirituality is engaging in a, in a consumeristic endeavor to that degree, it's in conflict with the classical traditions.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that wisdom. Because as you were sharing, I was thinking about my own experience with yesterday getting that email saying, you no longer have this teaching engagement. And that sense of like, what does this mean? And why didn’t they give me enough notice? And just like all the different things that were coming up around that and allowing myself to be with it, with equanimity and letting that be something that's just happening and not having to have so much attachment around it. Because I know I've definitely, in different parts of my life, have done that projected happiness onto a goal and thought as soon as I get there, then like, I've acquired it, I've done it. And it's taken a lot of work to get to a place to not do that. And it doesn't mean I'm just like sitting around not doing anything. I'm still working towards things. But there is more of a balance and wisdom around it. And I think that understanding around the desires and the aversions is really important to understand that natural inclination that we all have, that our mind has. And it's powerful to understand. So, thank you so much for sharing that with us.

Neil Dalal:

Yeah. And this is one of the core teachings of the Bhagavad Gita, for example. It's like, how do you accept the situation that didn't go your way and you actually have a choice, A wise choice, you know, requires practice and understanding, and it's a yogic practice, right? Of, of developing that equanimity. And it's set in a particular teaching and an understanding of, of… a whole other thing that, that kind of comes in here, which is maybe a bigger discussion too, is like the role of ishvara in all of this. Like of, I don’t have a good English translation, but something like the divine, God. Doesn't quite work in translation.

That's also, you know, so central to the Hindu Brahman yoga traditions at least. And, and in many ways also in the Buddhist yoga traditions, in, in a different sort of different way. And that's often lost too. But in any case, yeah, it's, it's, you know, cheerful equal and equanimity is not, not caring, right? It's not about disassociation and disengagement or fatalism. It's a, it is, it's the holding the seeming paradox of being able to care and pursue things and yet not be attached at the same time. And that's, yeah, it's, it's a beautiful thing because it's incredibly freeing. And I forget the example you gave earlier, but in my mind then, something so much to what you said, which I can't remember now, it's like, in the beginning it's like carving something into stone and it, so when something happens to us, you know, it's like holding a grudge forever, as long as the stone lasts, and then at the wiser and wiser you get the, the shorter that time period becomes like drawing in sand, and the tide's going to come and sweep it away. And eventually it's like drawing in the water where it doesn't leave a mark in terms of the pain. And that's really the, the mark of a liberated person is that they're, they're able to handle situations in that way. Even in the Yoga Sutra, like this idea of santosha is this, it's, it's not just contentedness, it's contentedness in failure too.

Yeah. It's really, there's a whole philosophy of happiness for moving through these traditions. That's, that's incredibly profound.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah. And creating space to be able to touch into the joy of being alive which I don't, I don't, I wasn't necessarily taught any of that. And then being able to, through these teachings be taught and realize that there is this inner joy and contentment that can arise and be present at any point, at any moment, at any time does allow for when things go wrong. And they go wrong all the time to be like, okay, I am, I'm going to feel all the things that are coming up, but also it's going to be okay. Like, I can move and handle this situation. And as someone who used to struggle with anxiety a lot, it's allowed me to be with my anxiety to be like, when that situation happens, we will deal with it at that point. Like, worrying about something that might or might not happen in the future isn't really a wise way of being in the present moment. But now that I, through my practices have the strength and resilience of like, well, if something wrong does happen at that point, we can deal with it and it'll be fine. It'll be fine at that point too. But without these teachings, I probably would still be a very anxious, angry mess.

Neil Dalal:

This is one of, one of my favorite things about Indian… let, let me just specify to Advaita Vedanta because… speak about best, is that it, it's totally reframing our understanding of happiness. So instead of thinking, I'm a limited person and I need, and or I'm, I'm a lacking person and I need to get this in order to, to fill my lack and get to a non-lacking state, the idea is that we're already full. We're already complete. We're, we have innate happiness. And the happiness is not a state of mind. It's not a mental state. It's one's very being, the ground of our being is complete and full, and it's only because of an error that we keep mistaking ourselves as limited, and the error is causing us to pursue things, to complete us and, and fulfill us.

And so, the whole solution has nothing to do with fulfillment based on attaining things through actions and results gaining or, or reaching or, you know, whatever. Rather, it is coming to an understanding of that fullness. So, it also shifts the whole yogic pursuit, not from, from a, from one of just doing stuff to get something or get somewhere, or to transform myself from limited to unlimited, like, like the caterpillar to the butterfly idea. But rather it is just stripping away the errors and seeing, oh, I actually am whole, I've just been falsely erroneously delimiting that wholeness based on a, based on an error, right? So, so for me, the yoga, there's sorts of practices, whether it's posture or meditation, other things. But the real core of yoga is a knowledge-based practice of, of eliminating my error about myself by recognizing myself as whole. And then once you recognize yourself as whole, it greatly or, or ultimately completely dismisses or eliminates the, this sort of the craving, because you can crave things, but you can also say, recognize like, I don't need this to be whole because I am whole. Right? So becomes a very different process.

Harpinder Mann:

Yeah. Becomes a very different way of being with life.

Neil Dalal:

I'm just going back to that, to the glasses on the head. We don't want to be a yoga practitioner that has their glasses on their head that's searching everywhere—

Harpinder Mann:

Hmm.

Neil Dala:

—for the glasses. And whether you're searching from like a materialistic point of view, or you're doing spiritual practices that are really like, satvic and wholesome, you're still not going to find your glasses that way until someone points out to you or you, you know, you realize that you have your glasses and then all that searching falls away. It's like, well, why was I running here and there trying to figure it out when the solution was already here? So, this is, it's, it's a totally radical reframing, and I think this, you know, it it, there's this trope that happiness is within, it's trite, you know, and people say that, but where is it that you need the yogic path to realize that? And to shift from this perspective, at least from, to shift from thinking, I'm going from point A, my yogic path to point B. Really, we're just coming back to point A, but if we don't see it that way, you know, it's like chasing the horizon that way, you're just going to keep chasing and the chase can be fun and there can be a lot of growth in the chase, but it's not going to end. It can't end. There's no solution there to chasing,

Harpinder Mann:

I'm just like sitting with all of this. Because I know for me it's always just such beautiful teachings, but also reminders to just keep coming back, keep coming back to myself instead of that like seeking searching and like seeking outside of myself. And I know I could talk to you for like another two to three hours easily but I want to be mindful of your time. So, as we wrap up this episode is there any last things that you would like to share?

Neil Dalal:

No. Just to add one thing on that line, like I, I think the most important thing in yoga is inverting your gaze and sort of looking back through the layers of, of mind. This takes guidance. It's not a simple practice, but really if you think of it just differently that way, like how, how can I see the ground of my mind? Like how do I see the foundation of my experience? You know, I, I have like in asana practice, we're, we're so engaged in our physical perception, tactile sensation in our, in our you know, kinesthetic sense of being in space and so forth and so on. But, but what about like, on the emotional level or on the basic perceptual level going back in, or what about like higher order cognition, metacognition? How do I know that I'm aware of something?

And so really what yoga's doing is we're, we're, we're finding that ground, whether it's the yoga sutras, you know, people, I just say people always want to quote the second yoga sutra. You know, that, that yoga is a cessation of mind, but it's really the next sutra that's just as or more important, which is that when you have cessation of mind, then this, the witness, the seer stands in its own nature. So what is that seer? What is that witness? What is that center point of, of awareness? And that's, to me, that inquiry, that self-inquiry is, is the solution of where one's happiness is. So, something, something that to think about and to try and engage.

Harpinder Mann:

I think that's a wonderful place of inquiry. And a great place for folks as they're listening to this to turn to and also turn as a practice themselves. So I'm, I'm so thankful that you, as we wrap up the episode, like brought that to the light. And hopefully that's something that people as they listen or students can actually turn to and start to explore for themselves. This has been so wonderful speaking to you for the last hour and a half, two hours kind of moving all over the place. And through all of this, like I know I just had so many nuggets of wisdom that came to me from you. And having this conversation where there are layers of intricacies, it's not just an easy like yes, do that, don't do that. And knowing that this path takes years and potentially lifetimes of studies, there's no rush. And finding a good teacher is important. So, Neil, I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that you said yes, that I get to study with you. And then for this really impactful conversation, I'm just like full of gratitude. So thank you so much.

Neil Dalal:

You are very welcome. It was a pleasure.

 Harpinder Mann:

And to everyone that tuned in, thank you so much. I'll see y'all for the next episode. Bye!