Episode 7: Tantric Yoga & The Power of Holding Multiple Truths with Kendra Coupland transcript
Harpinder Mann:
I am so excited, Kendra, to be speaking with you. So, we're going to dive right into it as I've been doing, and this first question of what does yoga mean to you?
Kendra Coupland:
Yeah. So, this is like a question [laugh], it's so hard for me to answer because for me, like yoga is the philosophy through which I navigate my entire life. And it's really hard for me to say like, yoga is this one particular thing like asana or pranayama or one particular practice because it's like this multitude of practices and a philosophy that just governs the way that I live my life.
Harpinder Mann:
Mmmmm. Thank you for answering in that way. Because I think that really sheds a light into how encompassing and broad and nuanced yoga is. It's not just simply, “Yoga is this!” And it, and it shows up for people in different ways. A follow up question to this then is like, what has yoga taught you? If it's, your philosophy, what are some key things?
Kendra Coupland:
I'm probably going to oversimplify this [laugh], but you know, I—and, and maybe this is controversial for some people—but I feel like the thing that yoga teaches us is that God is not something which exists outside of ourselves. That's like my biggest takeaway from my practice. It's recognizing myself as the body of divine consciousness, others as the body of divine consciousness. And I, you know, when you understand who and what you are, it becomes a lot easier to understand what your purpose is as well. So that's something that I've gained, you know, hugely from the yoga practice.
Harpinder Mann:
Before perhaps finding your way to yoga, what was the difference between like, who you thought you were versus now knowing yourself as divinity? Like, what has that difference that impact has made?
Kendra Coupland:
Oh, I think it was very much like wrapped up in my own identities. And to a point that it was causing like, a lot of suffering. You know, like, I felt like this pressure, I had to do a certain thing with my life where I was going to disappoint my parents, or like, I didn't understand what my Blackness meant. I didn't understand my gender/sexuality. So there was like so many pieces of like, trying to figure out who and what am I. And it was almost like trying these hats on and being like, “This one doesn't quite fit.” And I, and I suffered a lot. You know, I struggled a lot with anxiety. I struggled a lot with depression. My mental health suffered trying to be everything to everyone. And then when I deepened my yoga practice and you come to a place where you realize who and what you are, a lot of that just drops away, if not all of it.
Harpinder Mann:
I find that's something that in my practice and study, a philosophy of the embodiment practices is dropping of all the external facing identities. And coming back to the truth of who we are and the truth of that divine consciousness. And I know for people that are maybe new to this path, it's kind of like, “Oh, what does that mean? How do I understand it?” What was that understanding in embodiment like for you?
Kendra Coupland:
How did that come to a place where I could understand myself in this place?
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah.
Kendra Coupland:
I think that… I can't say that there was any one particular practice. I think it was like a lot of different things. You know, I tried many forms of meditation, for example. I did vipassana for a long time. I've done dyad for a long time, but I think it's like a, a, a culmination of like all of these practices, which are like all pointing me back in the same direction. And then coming to a place where I recognize myself as both. That like this kind of egoic self and this impermeable, divine self, they're actually… they can't be separated. They're like two sides of the same coin. And so, of course, on one level I identify as woman, as Black and as queer and how I move through the world. I'm—people respond to that. And I very much have to navigate the world based on those identities. And also, I recognize myself as part of a larger construct of consciousness. And so, what that allows me to do then is to like release some of that, like attachment and clinging and suffering that is part and parcel with that egoic identity.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. I've been contemplating a lot on lately, I am divine and human. I am spiritual and a mess. And how both these things can exist. And because oftentimes in, and in writing this book, something I've been exploring is like that spiritual bypassing that happens where folks will say, “But aren't we all one? I don't see color!” And it's like, in going with what you're saying, we're completely missing the other side of the coin. We're still human. We still have these identities. We can't completely bypass that to focus on, “But we're all one!” And that spiritual bypassing shows up in, in a lot of different spaces that I've been in. And I mean, especially on the internet where any anyone can say anything [Kendra laughs]. Yeah. And I, I think that's such a good point that you're making where it's both sides of the coin. We have these external identities that we operate in the world, and also, we have that divinity and consciousness that's connected to all beings. And for me, I know this practice really allowed me to see that, to feel that and, and brought a huge sense of relief.
Kendra Coupland:
Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
Harpinder Mann:
On that line of spiritual bypassing, is it something that you've seen in spaces that you've come across?
Kendra Coupland:
Definitely. I mean, like, I don't think I've been to a yoga studio that ever scented any part of a yoga practice beyond asana and pranayama, maybe like a tiny bit of pranayama. And often it's like very like goal-oriented, so it's like, “Deep breathing so you can have a more intense yoga practice.” Or it will be something that's like, you know, “Pranayama to help you fall asleep,” but it's very rarely for like, the purpose of like supporting vital energy. And, you know, a lot of these classes, just like in there, the way that they're structured, they're like rooted in these like healthism, fatphobia, toxic positivity, spiritual bypassing. So it's like, to me, yeah. Like I just experience it so much in like a yoga in “industry,” which is like a weird thing to even like to say [Laugh]. Yeah. Like, consider yoga, like some sort of “industry” is, is like bizarre to me. But definitely I've, I've experienced it, you know, this kind of sense of like, “We're all one, so why do you have to be so… why do you have to talk about race?” Or, “Why do you have to talk about” you know, whatever makes people uncomfortable? It's like they, they want to use spirituality as a way to feel good. And that's not what yoga's about. Yoga's about how, how can I be with the reality in a way that I don't suffer, not how do I have an experience that feels, you know, all cozy and comfortable. And so yeah. I, I think it's almost like the easy way out is to be like, “Just be positive. Just feel good all the time. We'll just put on quiet music and we'll just, you know, get more pillows and make the room cozier. And then, you know, we're going to come to some place of, of ease in our being.” [Laugh]
Harpinder Mann:
And it is absurd. And, and it is rather shocking the way the yoga industry really has that white supremacy, like toxic fitness culture, fatphobia, and all these things kind of like mixed into it. And the danger I see there is then when new students come into, “Well, I want to practice yoga, I want to understand what it is.” They're not really getting the heart of the practice. They're getting this posture-based exercise with what you're saying, the goals of very much rooted in changing the physical body and feeling a certain way and needing to feel better. And it doesn't create that space for, well, the reality is there is suffering and there is uncomfortable sensations and feelings and experiences. And how do we learn in our practice to sit with those things, to hold those things and understand them, not as something foreign or bad to be shoved away, but to be understood and, and worked with. And that's something that is oftentimes just missing in these spaces.
Kendra Coupland:
Definitely. I think like, there's so much focus on like, being “healthy,” and it's really just like complete delusion because we are going to get sick no matter how much yoga, how much working out you do, eat all the right things, you're going to get sick. We just watched all, you know, the last three years of a pandemic occur where millions of people got very, very sick and a lot of them didn't even live. So, it's like you know, all human bodies are going to get age. We're all going to age into disability at some point. And, and your health is like dependent on what? A car accident? A bad fall? A head injury? and suddenly you're disabled and, and health looks different for you. So, it's like this kind of delusion of control, which I, I experienced in so many aspects of white supremacy are so much about like, controlling all the external aspects of what we identify to be other than ourselves. And you know, like even like body sizes change. Like, you're going to gain weight, you'll lose weight if you get sick, if you get pregnant, if you, you go through a major life event, if you become mentally ill. So, there's like this kind of like, need to control that I see so prevalent in the yoga “industry” that doesn't address the reality of like, being in a human body. And I think it's like–I do think it's important, like in general to have a positive outlook on life. Because, you know, for me that's like maintaining the hope of change that like, I can be a better version of myself. That, you know, there's always an opportunity to, to grow or to learn or to change. Like, for me, that's, that's an important kind of positive outlook to maintain. But if I like, refuse to acknowledge what's like, difficult or hard or painful, then I'm willfully like ignoring the suffering of other people. And therefore, I'm robbing them of the opportunity to heal. I'm robbing myself of the opportunity to grow with them.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely. Because even if we want to pretend that spectrum doesn't exist, doesn't mean it ceases to exist.
Kendra Coupland:
Right. [Laughs]
Harpinder Mann:
It's still always there. And I think for me, the practice of yoga is learning to grow my perspective. To hold multiple truths.
Kendra Coupland:
Yeah.
Harpinder Mann:
To hold the nuances and, and hold that there is really so much suffering and I'm suffering. You're suffering. And how do we learn to understand our own suffering, others suffering and, and work with it? Not from a place of like, “Well, I'm fine. I'm, I'm great! Things are great!” And it's just like, “Are you great?” [Laughs] “Are you okay? And how can we be really vulnerable and honest?” I think that's important.
Kendra Coupland:
If we're unwilling to look at it, then we can never get to the root of what the suffering is. Right? And so, yeah, when I think especially with teachers, when, when we create spaces that are like buffer experiences for students we, we don't, we, we rob me of that opportunity to like look deeply into like, what is at the core of the suffering, what's actually occurring in the, in my reality? What is real and what have, like I've been… what have I been offered or taught, or what views have been imposed upon me? Like, and once I kind of parse all that out, what's at the core? And you know, for me, I teach predominantly in, for, with a lot of marginalized communities, I work with a lot of folks who have experienced significant trauma. I, I feel like people are often… it feels like really inviting to be like, “Come to a de-stressing yoga class or come to a, a relaxation class or candlelit yoga.” Like when, when it's, when you're experiencing… like, when your truth is like, it's, it's difficult to be in my body, that's a really inviting experience. And it's almost like a way of like preying on people [laughs] to, you know, to like, or capitalizing on their trauma or their grief or their suffering. For personal profit when you're like, “Oh, I'll, I'll create this like, experience for you to have.” But we're not actually helping people to like, move through the, the suffering through the grief, through the trauma. And, you know, in that way, like, we don't actually progress forward collectively.
Harpinder Mann:
Mm. Yeah. And I think we're seeing the repercussions of that now out in society. And, and, and I know in the last like few years with the pandemic, with the murder of George Floyd and so many others, there's been such a call to action to do better, to sit down, to contemplate, to look deeply into these things, into the sources of our own biases. Conscious or [un]conscious. And I think yoga provides this practice to be able to do that, to sit with those truths. But I don't necessarily know if it's what's being offered in those spaces. Whereas it is just like a candlelight yin class. And I also am… I also celebrate those classes as well. Because I think people need soft spaces to land. There needs to be spaces to like regulate our nervous system, but I think we just can't stop there. It can't be, “That's it. That's the only solution. That's the remedy. That's what yoga is. Now you're done, enjoy your life.” And it's like, “Okay, now that you've regulated, now that you feel in a more stable place, can you grow your perspective? Can you look further into others’ suffering as well?” And I think that's where its kind of, it halts.
Kendra Coupland:
And it also becomes like a dependency. Like, “Oh, I need to have essential oils and I need to have soft music, and I need to have candles in order to regulate my nervous system.” Whereas I feel like one of the most beautiful things about yoga is there are like a myriad of practices to self-regulate that you could start with the breath. You could start with observing whatever chaos you're in. You could start by, you know, just mindful movement. I lift my arm up and I'm aware my arm is up. You know, there are, there's so many ways to come home to the self. And so, I think when the whole–a whole industry is just doing it like one particular way, what we're saying to people are like, “You need to regulate yourself in this particular way.” And that doesn't work for everybody.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely. And I think that also then goes back into white supremacy and, and dominant culture of wanting to structure things in one way. It's kind of like one-size-fits-all type solution. And if you can't fit into this, you're not part of the norm. There's something wrong with you. And when I think about yoga, the way it's been practiced and taught in a very individual, one teacher, one student way, it was never meant to be just, “Okay, everyone practices this way. We practice it, you can't do it? There's something wrong with you. Keep it trekking forward.” And it's like, it was meant to be individual and cater to the students' needs and this very supportive relationship. Which I know is a little bit the way that you practice and teach as well. And I think some of that has gotten lost in these, like, studio classes, group classes, “Do the same thing. Okay, we're done for the day, 60 minutes is over.” And it's like, how do we keep the relationship going and know that each person is so individual and their needs in their growth capacity, in their trauma?
Kendra Coupland:
Yeah. I mean, I would say the majority of my students are one-on-one. And what I have seen in like, you know, working with people one-on-one is like major shifts in how they navigate the world. Like their ability to, to be present when life's disappointments, inevitably, you know, arrive. I had students that like, you know, two or three years ago when they were arriving on the mat, I would ask them, “What are you noticing in your body?” And the only thing that they could like con be in contact with was like, back pain. “I'm just in pain.” And then, you know, three years later, I'm like, “What are you observing?” And they're like, “I can hear the birds chirping outside. I'm noticing that I can, I'm noticing the temperature in my room right now. I'm noticing, you know a tingling in my left arm.” So, there's like… their ability to be with like more and more subtle, but expansive part of their own experience is like, increased over time when you have the opportunity to work with a student, one-on-one. But like working in a group setting where people are doing drop-in classes, it's, it's very hard to create a space like that where people can do like a really deep dive. I do have a couple of classes I teach on the downtown east side, and I have students that have been coming for one or two years, and they'll often stay after class and ask questions or like clarify parts of the practice. And it's in those spaces that I'm able to work with them one-on-one, but it is much more difficult than when I have a, a student directly in front of me.
Harpinder Mann:
How does that fit into what you consider maybe your teaching philosophy or the way you prefer to hold space? What does that look like for you?
Kendra Coupland:
Right. Well, you know, like for me, my practice comes from Swami Vidyanand who teaches transformational yoga. And his philosophy was, was developed through the teachings of Sri Aurobindo and the Mother and their, their teachings of integral yoga. And so, it really looks to integrate practices that are body-based, that are based around vital energy, prana, the mental body and the, the psychic body. So, the practice is quite integrated, the one that I teach. You know, often we're doing asana and we also do prana in the practice, and we also do mantra in the practice, all at the same time. And we're also doing a... so we'll often be like in a posture for maybe a minute or two, practicing self-observation and then coming out the posture, practicing self-observation. So, there's like a lot of… it's says slower practice but very much directed. The attention is directed back in at the self. And I do teach aspects of philosophy, but as I said, you know, for, for me, a lot of the populations that I working with are marginalized communities. And I do work on the downtown east side. So, I often have students who sometimes have pretty severe drug addictions who might have—or other, you know, substance use struggles—might have mental health challenges, might be physically disabled. Oftentimes are living in poverty. And so, the reality is you can only go so far when people are denied basic human rights and you know, basic… their basic needs are not being met. Right. Like, it gets very difficult for someone to sit in meditation for a period of time when they're starving, right? When they don't have food to eat. So I would say that my philosophy is I'm always trying to meet my students where they're at. And I, and I really try to think about who's in the space and, and what is the best way that, what is the simplest form that I can give them these teachings or this practices to meet them wherever they're at in this moment? Like, how, how do I, how can I take these philosophies and, and make them the least complicated?
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. I think that's a, a really smart way to do it. Because I, I work with teens at a mental health center, and sometimes I walk into the space and, and I've said this a couple times to them where I'm like, “I'm sorry that this practice isn't going to eliminate or change the systems and… systems of oppression and inequality and these systems that fail us on a day-to-day basis. Like, I'm so sorry that this practice is not going to be able to change that. But still, it can change us and it can like, hold space for us.” But I sometimes I struggle with, for those folks that are that marginalized, don't have basic needs met. And then we have folks being like, “Oh, well this practice is going to solve everything.” And it's like, “No, we, we still need to cover the basic needs of folks.” And, and that needs to be addressed.
Kendra Coupland:
I mean, it's right there in like a lot of the yogic philosophy, right? It'll, you'll, you'll read various scriptures or sutures that talk about not being too full and not being, not being too hungry, like really trying to find middle path, not being too hot, not being too cold. We don't sit too low. We don't sit too high. You know, this is really, like, we're always trying to find that like, middle path. And when, when people are being oppressed or subjugated, that middle path is like taken, it's not even an option for them. So, you know, I think part of the work that I have, or part of the work that I do as a yoga teacher is like helping people to be in their reality sometimes because we, we can't change our reality. So how do we find ways to like find pockets of safety, find pockets of rest, and they are available to us, we just often can't see them, especially when we're experiencing dissociation, or we are struggling to be in our bodies more connected with our senses? And also as people are, are pointed more inward and cultivate their a a larger awareness or more expansive awareness, I would imagine they're going to feel more motivated or inspired to, to, to change the circumstances that are leading to their suffering. You know? I remember like a long time ago, I was like, I… [laugh] when I first started teaching, I was working with a lot of students who had–were survivors of sexual violence. And I myself am a survivor of sexual violence. And part of the reason I started teaching that group was I was like, “We're going to end sexual violence!” You know? But like, when people are so afraid to even say their story out loud, you know, how do we bring awareness to this thing? So, it, like, as much as I want to say, like, “Yoga has like a, the ability or the it has a potential to help us transform systems.” It does it in a very, very subtle, slow, meticulous way. it's not going to happen. like we do yoga in a class [laughs] with, you know, one hour a week and we're going to transform poverty. That's not how it works. Right. But I do think that like, as people become more aware of the thing which they are, they're less willing to tolerate subjugation. And, and even those who do subjugate as they become more self-aware, they're less likely to engage in dominating practices.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely.
Kendra Coupland:
I do think that like, it does have the potential to kind of untie these knots, but it's going to… it's a very subtle process and it's not going to happen by coming to class once a week.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. Would it then come from someone intentionally studying and practicing on a much more daily capacity? What would the opposite of that look like?
Kendra Coupland:
What would the opposite of that look like? Like if somebody were to practice every day?
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. So, if we're saying the solution, like, these systems of inequality are not going to end with someone just attending their 60-minute asana class once a week, they feel good. What is a way to really live this practice that's going to enact change personally and then out in a collective way?
Kendra Coupland:
Yeah. I mean, like that, this is where like the strong determination comes in, right? And like, how do we get our practice off of the mat and into our lives? So, it's like, it's, it's the practice of self-awareness when I'm stuck in traffic and, you know, the guy in front of me is clearly on the phone and they just keep hitting the brakes, and I'm like, “You're going to kill me!” And I, that like, rage in me is like, once it's pops up and scream to like, catch myself and be like, “Oh, I'm noticing the sensation. I'm noticing like, oh, my cheeks are getting hot. Oh, I'm noticing, I'm noticing, I'm noticing.” Like, but like, like when we're practicing on the mat, it's an opportunity to kind of, to build those like neuropathways, right? And then to take that off the mat and continue that. I'm like, “I'm noticing, you know, when I put my arm up, it's, except for like two minutes now, there's like no blood in my hand. I could feel the tingling. When I put my arm back down, I feel the blood come back in” and I'm… I know the, the sensations, right? I know what it feels like to be in this body. And so, I'm more connected in moments where there is like agitation or some sort of stimulation or excitement in the body. I can like, catch it a little bit easier. So, you know, I think it's like, it's, part of it is like the, the dedication to like, when you come to the mat every day knowing that you're, you're, you're building a skill set that you'll be able to take off of the mat. And oftentimes students don't even know when it happens. It just starts to happen. I remember I was teaching a few weeks back and a student came to me and was like, “You know, I was doing dishes last night, and I just kept thinking to myself, I could hear your voice saying like, ‘I'm aware I'm washing the plates. I'm aware the water is warm. I can feel the, you know, the, the, the touch of the water on my skin.’” So, this is like, you know, a way that they're taking these practices in a very, you know, kind of slow moving asana in a class into their real life. And the more that we practice that, the more it becomes like, “Oh, I heard a comment and I noticed some agitation coming up” because It's challenging a belief, right? And, and I when we, we look at like things that, like the, the legislation that's being passed against trans bodies right now, we look at legislation that's being passed against women's rights—I shouldn't even say women's rights, but reproductive rights. Those are like really kind of triggering or activating concepts for a lot of people. But if we could just find a way to like, slow down and be like, “Oh, I'm noticing I'm like getting agitated, or it's challenging what I've been told, or it's challenging my belief system, or it's challenging, like, ideas that my religion has given me of morality of right and wrong.” If we could just like, slow down and be with that long enough to see like, what occurs, what's occurring I think, you know, [laughs], we, we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in currently. So, so yeah. I think that's like a huge part of the practice is like getting it off the mat. But it requires us like coming to the mat to practice this like, like just to grind through the, like [laugh] the daily, like, “I'm noticing my breath, I'm noticing my breath.” You know, that like when you're really activated when you're in a race that you're like, “Oh, I'm holding my breath!” Like, I, I can now make a different choice. Right? I now have autonomy. I can choose to, to, to take a couple of deep breaths or I could stay in this activated place.
Harpinder Mann:
I mean, just so much wisdom in what you shared. That practice of really expanding our awareness and how that practice starts with ourselves first. Really starting to build that relationship with our sensations, noticing how the sensations are then linked with our emotions and our moods, and being able to catch ourselves. And I know for me, learning this has greatly grown my emotional capacity, my emotional maturity to notice like, “Oh, I'm feeling triggered. Let me take a cup of breaths. Let me breathe in here, let me regulate myself and then respond from that place.” And, and I, I know from that place the reactions, responses I have, they're just not as violent. They're not as violent to myself or to others.
Kendra Coupland:
Well, they kind of shift this out of like reactiveness into responsiveness.
Harpinder Mann:
Mm, absolutely. Yeah. And it makes me think about also in the Yoga Sutras and other teachers I've studied with is, starting to observe our mind also like a garden and noticing when we have those harmful thoughts or unhelpful thoughts is observing it, catching it, and then getting to a point, weeding them out so they stop kind of becoming this pattern that keeps coming back. Like weeding them out and then in place, planting in seeds of love and compassion. But also adding to that also planting in like seeds of activism of connection and interconnectedness to all beings of courage, of strength. And I think this practice offers that to us and, and being able to embody it and observe it. And what you were talking about also got me thinking about.. and I've come across this a few times, like with the yamas and niyamas where I've had students or other people say like, “Oh, I know that, let's learn something new. Oh, I know that.” I'm like, to know something is much different than to actually practice and embody it. I'm like, if we were to all truly live the yamas and niyamas, the world would be a different place. And I find sometimes that happens in this capitalization of yoga, the commodification where we want new techniques, we want these new things, it's like, ah, next thing! And it's just like, can we just simplify it and, and really embody these teachings first and then maybe we'll give you a new technique?
Kendra Coupland:
Yeah. Or like, even though you know a thing, can you know it deeper?
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely.
Kendra Coupland:
Right? I think that's the practice of Jnana Yoga, right? Is like to is one thing to know a thing because it's been said and it's like in your head now. And another thing to know it on an experiential level, right?
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Kendra Coupland:
It's one thing to say, “Yeah. Like, oh yeah, we are all one.” But it's like, it's like a meaningless thing. But if you understand it on an experiential level, it changes how you navigate the world. Right?
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely.
Kendra Coupland:
When you, when you actually like, understand the most subtle ways that we are interconnected and, and it's like a, a… how do I say this? It's like a difference between like knowledge and wisdom.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely! Yeah.
Kendra Coupland:
You know? When you have this like, inner wisdom and this inner knowing of who and what you are, then it no longer makes sense to oppress. It no longer makes sense to like, to participate in like, systems of oppression.
Harpinder Mann:
And this, this next question's going to be a, a slight tangent, but it's connected [Kendra laughs]. Because I know you had—I'm excited to hear your answer on this… how is modern yoga connected or influenced by whiteness and what can be done about this?
Kendra Coupland:
[Laughs] So, you know, for me it's like… I often think about… I mean like, again, like to oversimplify, it’s colonization, right? Like, that's how it's influenced by, by whiteness. And it's like been popularized among like thin, white women where it's sold as a hobby with class barrier rather than like a life, a way of life or like a life philosophy that's aimed at raising one's consciousness or the collective consciousness, right? So that would be like the first way that I would say that yoga has been influenced by whiteness as a construct. But then like, when it's like, about what, what can be done about this? Like, I feel like [laughs] that is a question I am perpetually asking myself. I have lost many nights of sleep [laughs] over that question. But you know, I also, I said earlier when you asked, you know, what does yoga mean to me? And I said, it's like my philosophy of life. I come back to my practice for the answer, right? And I, and I always going to look at things through a tantric lens, which is, you know, the, the school of yoga that I have studied. And I think that like, through a tantric lens, it's important for people to understand that consciousness, or I guess to understand the ways that consciousness becomes contracted when it is in a limited human body. So, like, one way I kind of explain this to my students is like, if you were to pass a light through a prism, you see like a singular beam on one side and then a spectrum on the other side. So that's kind of how consciousness works. There's like this great divine consciousness and it passes through this tiny contraction, and it comes out in a singular experience on the other side. So, a Harpinder or a Kendra, or a dog or a tree on the other side. And there's a couple of things that happen when that contraction occurs. And in a tantric philosophy, we call these malas. So, the first one is called anava mala, and that's like the illusion of smallness. So, when that contraction occurs, we have this very primal feeling that we're separate from all that is. And it's like the greater vastness of consciousness loses its contact with this contracted state, and we lose our sense of wholeness. So that's kind of like the first illusion that happens. The second one is mayiya… mayiya? I can't remember, I'm sorry, I'm not great with Sanskrit. But it's a, I think it's mayiya mala, which is the illusion of experiencing oneself as an individual. So, you know, through our subtle senses, like our nervous system, through our smell and touch and taste and sight and hearing, we experience ourselves as one thing and everything else is as other. When really, it's more like, it's all one thing and we're experiencing different flavors of the same singular energy, right? But when that contraction occurs, it, it's like, I'm in the sensing body and suddenly there's like there's like my senses and then there's an object that I'm sensing, which now feels outside of myself because I'm perceiving it. Does that make sense what I'm saying?
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. No, I'm, I'm following.
Kendra Coupland:
Okay. And then the last one is an—what is it? Sorry. Karma mala. Karma mala, which is the illusion of action. So, the illusion that I'm the doer of all of my own actions, and we, we, we begin to define ourselves as like, “I'm good or I'm bad, or I'm right, or I'm wrong, or I'm powerful or I'm powerless in the situation,” we don't see the interconnection, we just see ourselves as like, “I'm the single doer of all the things which occur in my life.” And so what tantric texts tell us is that there's actually things that we can do to counteract these contractions. And these are called upayas, right? So, the first one is Anupaya, and this is, and I should also mention that “upaya” means like, to do something with a skillful means, right? So, to counteract this feeling of smallness. This is where the practices of yoga that we know in the West come in. So, like I said, Anupaya is like the practice of asana, of pranayama work, of complex visualizations or rituals or you know, giving our practices of karma yoga, when we give our time practices of Siva these are all part of that practice, a, a way of expanding our awareness to, to also include the more subtle aspects of our being. So that's kind of the first piece. The second piece is Shaktaupaya or sometimes Jnanopaya. So again, this is like what we were talking about earlier, this difference of knowing or like acknowledging wisdom, right? So, it's kind of like when we move from a state of like, ideation into like, it becomes like a transmental state of being. So, like building up our mental capacity to actually observe or be with, and it's not just like a concept, but it's like we're actually building up the mental capacity. And so that through this practice, we're actually able to cut through illusion and be with reality. And I think of like what Sri Aurobindo said… I'm just trying to like, I might have to paraphrase this. I think he said like, “True knowledge is not attained by thinking it is what you are, it's what you become.” Then the last upaya would be Shambhavopaya. And so in this practice, the aspirant is beginning to see the reflection of the whole universe within themselves, rather than something that's occurring outside of themselves. And so, these practices are often guided by… like a, or they're traditionally guided by a teacher. So, and they would guide you into a state of like, no thing-ness. Or thoughtlessness. And I don't mean like thoughtlessness as like, you know a, “It's a thoughtless thing I said,” but like, there's no thought occurring in the mind. You're just in a state of being-ness or of active observation. And this is the place where like we actually begin to enter that state of non-difference. So, when we talk about like decolonizing yoga or moving beyond white supremacy, like part of that is actually occurring in these practices. Like when we are in that state of no mind, that's where like truth actually begins to emerge.
And that's where we begin to like transcend this matrix of domination and subjugation. And we, we see ourselves as we really are. And then the last one is Anavopaya, which is the state of no Upaya, so of no action. So, if you're sitting, then you're simply sitting. If you're dancing, then you're dancing. If you're making love, then you're making love. And the, and if someone was looking from the outside, they would know no, no difference. But inside you are totally present, totally aware. So, you're still engaged in the world, you're still engaged in action. But the difference now is that you're not doing it from a place of unconsciousness, and you're now doing it from a place of absolute consciousness. Everything you do is a choice. You're doing everything from a place of awareness. And so, when I think, yeah, when I think about like moving out of these like patterns of like, how does yoga get us there? It's right there in these texts, right? I also think of like the yogic text, a text in there. And again, like I'm paraphrasing here, I think it's like in stupor, in anxiety, in extreme emotion, at the edge of a precipice, when we're trying to escape war, when we're hungry or terror, or we're experiencing terror, or even when you sneeze, the formless essence of your mind can be seized.
So, what this is telling us is that like through these practices, there are even opportunities in the most intense aspects of the human experience where we can recognize ourselves as this formless consciousness. And when I often… I'm talking about like consciousness, Chaitanya, and I'm, like I said earlier, it is really important for my students to understand that like the ego and this non-ego itself actually can't be separated, right? That's part of like this understanding of who and what we are. It's part of this, this state of pure awareness that begins to unfold through these practices, right? So, it's like, I can be mindlessly cutting carrot carrots for dinner, right? And I just cut them up and I don't think twice about it. Or if I'm totally present, then I'm, I can actually smell the, the smell of the earth, that earthy smell of the carrot as I cut it. And I can actually see that as I cut, it's a bit wet inside, which is evidence that there was rain. And I'm aware that like a bee came and pollinated the flowers that made this carrot possible, that a farmer planted it, that a driver drove it to the market, that grocer put it on the shelf and checked me out. That when I eat this carrot, all of that is contained in the carrot.
Right? And, and in that way I kind of interrupt that feeling of separateness of like me and them. And I don't know if that's making sense or if I'm just like on a [Laugh] rambling rampage.
Harpinder Mann:
No! I mean tantra yoga is not one of my lineages or something I have really studied. So, to hear you lay out, lay it out in this way… I mean, I, I've learned and understood these teachings in similar ways, but not laid out like this. And it was just so beautiful to take it in.
Kendra Coupland:
[Laugh]
Harpinder Mann:
And to yeah, just like let it wash over. Because it's such a, just so many beautiful teachings and reminders in there of how we deem and start to see ourselves as separate. And we're not, and I think about Thich Nhat Hanh teaches about touching something deeply, and to touch something deeply is that example of the carrot where it's not just a carrot that popped out nowhere, it's a carrot that someone took time to plant the seed to care for it, to grow it, to harvest it, to then put it into a truck. And just so much effort and work went into the—
Kendra Coupland:
The single carrot!
Harpinder Mann:
The single carrot. And when I, when I, when I really start thinking, touching deeply on things like that, and another one of my students during meditation was sharing something very similar. And I started thinking about this towel that I have on my desk and I was like, we can just think about it as, it's just a towel. It's just a cup. It's just this. Or we can really touch deeply into what it actually means and how much work and effort and interconnectedness is it took for everything to be. And when I feel like when we really touch deeply into those things, how is every moment not just a miracle? Like how is every moment not just like a, “Oh my God, I get to be alive to experience this?!”
Kendra Coupland:
[Laugh] I had this experience the other day. I was driving home from a friend's place, and I had just come from this conversation with my friend who was really struggling with reconciling with their family, so reconciling with their lineage and their ancestors. And they were really… they had a lot of anger for things that their ancestors had done. And I was really in that moment trying to offer a practice that would help them to extend compassion to those ancestors. But it didn't really land. So, I was driving home just kind of like replaying this through my head and thinking about like, yeah, our ancestors really did some messed up shit. [Laugh] And I, you know, as I'm driving, I was like coming up the highway and it was like, it was part of the highway where there's just like, roads everywhere.
It's like eight lanes wide. And I was like, I bet you this used to be like a forest, you know? And, and I started to get myself like a bit worked up being like, this, what, where do, why, why do we do this? You know? But then I was like, “Oh my gosh. Somebody, somebody went around the world plotting a map, like just plotting the terrain!” Actually not just one person. Many people traveled the world like by boat, by foot, just drawing on the terrain so that we could all find our way home.
And like, I think of like the Boomer generation and Gen X who like took that information and translated it to GPS, so I could just put on my little, you know, Google Maps and like find my way home from a place where I don't know where I am. And then I thought for a moment, like, oh, all of these ancestors who've like literally let me find my way home from wherever I am. What a, like, what a beautiful gift that is. So, it's like, it's so easy when we are disconnected from like, our reality to like be judgmental or to be in that seat of like, critique because we're not seeing the whole picture. Right. And from the place where we can see the whole picture, it's like, okay, maybe the roads weren't the best idea [laugh], or maybe we could have like dialed the roads backwards or figured something else out some way. Maybe, maybe there was a we didn't have to go so far on the extreme. And also, thank you, thank you for taking the time to like chart out the whole earth and then put it into the GPS so that like, I can drive to a place I've never been and still find my way back home. How many generations wandered around lost?
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that story. Because it, and one of my teachers shares this where he was like, the, the flip of consciousness can be turned on at any time. And I think about that flip of like, gratitude can turn on at any time. You can be driving kind of like, oh, like this. It's a lot of traffic. Like I had a long day. And it's just like, well, I have a car, I had a job. I'm able to go home now. And at any point we can have gratitude for anything and everything. And I think that's what this practice has also really brought to me. I was thinking about, I'm taking a Bhagavad Gita study course with one of my teachers. And he did a, like contemplative gratitude practice with us. And he was sharing, there's even a wiser way to be with our happiness.
And, and he was talking about also happiness camouflaging suffering. And I had to sit with that for a long time. And it's like how… for me, I was like, how can I be with my happiness in a wiser way? And I think that wiser way is paying gratitude to all of reality and consciousness and the land and ancestors that made it possible for me to have whatever thing I'm happy about. Because It wasn't simply my doing, it wasn't just because like, it's all me and I did it! Now I have it! And I think that’s also—
Kendra Coupland:
This is when we come back to that teaching, right? Of like, I'm not the doer of my actions and where that contraction occurs. You know, when we're in these contracted states, we perceive ourselves as like, I'm here. Everything else is out there. I'm just trying to do me, they be doing them. They're making a mess, you know? But like, actually nothing I do is just my own doing. Somebody made the car I'm driving, somebody paved the roads. You know, I, I didn't put the plumbing in my own house. [Laugh]
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely. I mentioned this story a couple times with like friends here and there. I was on YouTube, this is a couple years ago now, and there was, someone had a large following on YouTube, a yoga teacher, and he would start his videos talking about, “I am a self-taught yogi, I'm a self-taught yoga teacher.” And I was like, excuse me? [Laugh] What type of white BS is this? Like, and I think that's a problem that I see in so many different ways where we intentionally disconnect ourselves in, and in this particular example, in a very disrespectful way of not honoring the roots and all the teachers and practitioners that came before us that have kept these practices and teachings alive. And I just remember seeing that and being like, what?
Kendra Coupland?
What does that even mean? [Laugh] Like you self-taught from where? Did you get it from a book? Did you get it from like, who… I can't even. [Laugh] It’s such a wild thing. Like I even when people will like come to me after class and be like, oh, thank you for that wise teaching. I'm like, baby, it's not mine! [Laugh] And I feel immense gratitude for like every yogi that came before, every yogi that sat in a cave, just being with themselves in the darkest of darkest human experiences. And then we're like, oh, I found my way home and then left the lights on. All these centuries for the rest of us. If you ever find yourself in this dark place, here's like one way you can get back out. And like I said, yoga is like this myriad of teachings, like thousands of teachings really, of ways to come home to self. And so, I just feel so grateful for like, everybody who's like taken time to find their way home to self-who’s been like, and this way! [Laugh] you can do it through the breath! Or you could do it through, you know, movement! Or you can do it through observation or you can do it through visualization! There's just so many schools of yoga even, you know? Different ways of approaching and, and taking us back to the same core place.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely.
Kendra Coupland:
So yeah, the idea of being like… self-proclaimed “gurus” make me crazy. [Laugh] Yeah.
Harpinder Mann:
It just… I'm like guru of what? You haven't figured out the, like, I'm like… the truth of our interconnectedness. Like, it's just, oh yeah. I just… boggles my mind where I'm like, I didn't just miraculously pop up on this universe as an alien from like nowhere. Like, I have come from my mom and my dad before me and my grandparents before that, and the people before that. And it's like, there's a lineage there. But I also come from this land that holds me. There's just so many different things that we can point to and give gratitude to. And I think that's something I also see just in society in general and within the modern yoga spaces. Like there's a lot of disconnection that's happening, whether it's intentional or unintentional. There's disconnection and there isn't that honoring of the roots. And I, I think it's important in, in this space of being yoga students, being yoga practitioners, of honoring the roots.
Kendra Coupland:
Definitely. And, but I think, you know, when we look at like who's practicing [laugh] and who's like put in the seat of a teacher and who's in these leadership roles in the “industry” of yoga, we we're seeing people take their way of life and then like try to fit yoga into that. When it's its own philosophy.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely.
Kendra Coupland:
You know, and so like, I don't, again, this may be very controversial, but I, I really, and this is a very tantric way of looking at it, there has to be a level of ignorance in order to understand a level of, for there to be a level of awareness. Like we have, there has to be a bit of a dark to understand what light is. There has to be a down to understand what the up is. And so, one of the ways that I like come to peace [laugh] with like the, the “yoga industry” as a whole is like in two ways. One, it is actually through the process of this like colonization of yoga that has made the voices of decolonization so loud. In the same way that like, would anyone know who Martin Luther King was if he hadn't been shot? He became so much, he became like a global name. Right?
Does that mean that he should have been shot? No. Does it mean that colonization should have happened or slavery should have happened? No, it doesn't mean that. And also, not, but. And also, we see an emergence of a thing because one thing occurred over here. The other thing that I see that helps make peace with like yoga industry is like a lot of tantric yoga is, is centered around goddess practice. Right? So, I look a lot to like Lalita Tripura Sundari, she's a goddess that's considered like, like the taste in nectar or like the thing that draws the bee to the flower. She's kind of like this, like very sensual, sexy, prime, you know, for sexuality goddess. And one of the things I, one of the ways I see her manifest in the world is kind of this like, come hither, I see her manifest as this like kind of come hither energy. Like, come and try these sexy yoga pants on. And then she's like pow pow! [Laugh] Consciousness! [Laugh] Where she's like, “Come and do bunny yoga. It'll be so fun.” You know? [Laugh]. And, and so I think like these, they become these entry points, points for people to like dip their toe in and become more curious. So, it's very hard for me to be like, they're totally irrelevant. I can't discount them completely because they do draw people into the practice in these kinds of almost like delusional ways, but ultimately, they give us an opportunity to begin walking out of delusion. So even if you're practicing wine yoga with goats or whatever the hell it is. And it, that's not for me. But I'm also not in that in a, in that, that level of consciousness where that would appeal to me. But if I were, I might come and be like, “Oh, actually my back felt really good after that for what, you know, maybe I'll try a different yoga class. Maybe I'll see if I can find some YouTube videos.”
And that's where it begins. Then they have the opportunity to find maybe the teacher that is going to give them the philosophy. When I think there's, there's like, they always, there's like a saying of like, “the student finds a teacher when they're ready to, to learn.” You know? And I feel like the, the students that I have as one-on-one students are often students who have like religious trauma [Laugh], or they've been through like a particular type of yoga. I won't say the teacher's name, but that has like deeply traumatized them. Because It was all about perfection in the posture. But, you know, those students often have been through like many different types of yoga by the time they come to me. They've tried the goat yoga, they tried the, the perfection imposter yoga. And now they're ready for like a deeper level of philosophy. So, while I, the egoic aspect of me is like, I hate it, I don't like it. It feels bad and I don't like it. And it’s white supremacy and I hate it. The other, the like, the, the, the most divine aspect of me is just observing, just taking it all in and being like, very interesting that that should happen in that way and then this occurs over here.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. I just sense a great level of equanimity also in that answer. Just a sense of that like balanced wisdom. Because I definitely can see now in the last few years how people have been reaching out to me, reaching out to other teachers being like, I, “What is real yoga?” Which in and that's in itself a question that's like, “Oh!”
Kendra Coupland:
[Laughs]
Harpinder Mann:
“I want to learn yoga philosophy. I want to know what's more to yoga besides asana.” And a lot of people kind of coming to this awakening where they didn't even realize there was more So, I can have gratitude for that, for that awakening that's happening. Although I do have to say, I think sometimes my egoic side is a little bit activated seeing the wine, yoga, beer yoga, and I'm just like, what? Like, what are we,
Kendra Coupland:
The opposite of yoga!
Harpinder Mann:
Right?
Kendra Coupland:
It's the opposite. You're moving farther away from reality if you're drunk [Laugh].
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely. Like, you're literally blurring reality and the truth by adding in alcohol. I mean, I mean, that's, it’s like own conversation. But I, I really do appreciate your answer around that and, and just that balance, that balance around it.
Kendra Coupland:
I also want to say like, it is tricky because like, I feel like this is something that people who want to uphold white supremacy will often use as a tool. Like, “Oh, well, if there wasn't slavery, we wouldn't have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” That's not what I'm saying. I want to be really clear about that. I'm not using it as a means of justifying historical violence. Right. I'm not using it as a means to justify colonization. I'm just saying that there, there, there is a reality. We're like, we live in a, in, even though, within a singular consciousness, a duality. Right. We've created a duality in the sense of me and other, black and white, up and down as we've like, tried to expand this, this question of who, who am I?
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. And Lama Rod Owens in his book, “Love and Rage” does a really good job talking about this exact thing is, say with the example of colonization, you have to first accept the reality that it happened. And to accept the reality doesn't mean to celebrate or condone it, it just means you're accepting that this has happened. And oftentimes I feel like white supremacists, or people that want systems to stay exactly as they are, will use these same things that you're saying. I'm saying to be like, “Oh, but it's just an entry point. Like, they'll make their way to yoga. Like this is an experience. Like it's still yoga!” And it's, it's interesting how the same thing said, coming from one person, then coming from someone else is completely different. And I think that's where our identities and privileges and those things have to come into play.
Kendra Coupland:
And also, again, when you are in a state of like, full awareness, when you have the awareness of the whole picture, right? Like, and again, this is like, I could be dancing mindlessly or I can be fully aware, I'm dancing, I can feel my heel, every toe hit the ground. Like there's a different, there's a difference in those two things, even though they look the same from the outside. So, I can, you know, I can make a statement like that from a place of ignorance, and I can make a statement like that from a place of like, awareness. Both are possible. And if you're just looking from the other side, it's very hard to tell the difference between the two. And it's like you're saying we can't change that history, that that colonization has happened and we have to accept that reality. And I think what, what I, the piece that is like interesting to me is like, oh, interesting. When you suppress or push or… what is the word when we like repress our emotions or whatever it is that we're trying to crunch down, something pops up over here.
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely.
Kendra Coupland:
It's like the more we try to repress aspects of our humanity, the louder they come up the side. And I think that that's what we're seeing in like how what has occurred in, you know, slave uprising and revolts. Like, people were not like, oh, okay, I'll just guess I'm just going to be a slave and all the generations of my kids will just be slaves. And they're like, chill about it. No! They were like, no! Immediately no. No, don't take me from this land. Don't put me on this land. I don't want to work. Don't take my kids. Like, they were mad. And so, there's like this, like, again, this like need to control or repress or like, like control aspects of our humanity. And the more that we do that, the more that they pop up here. And that's what I'm observing occur when, when I'm seeing like yoga try to be constrained or repressed or like, put in this way, but like something else is popping up over here. And I'm very curious and interested about what's happening over here.
Harpinder Mann:
Hmm. Yeah. And I feel like we're a part of kind of what's happening over here is we're seeing what's happened. And today I was working on, for my book looking at like what I'm calling like “cult yoga,” these like different brands that have popped, popped up. And I'm very much become very like cult-like and like the power that the founder wields in constructing yoga. And then people finally being like, I'm fed up. Like, what is this? This is not what I signed up for. And it's just really interesting to see even, because at the end of the day, we're all so human and humans, flawed and that inherent ignorance that we hold, we still bring that to different things. Even something like yoga that teaches us about divinity, we're still humans. We come to yoga, we come with all our flaws and we're like, okay, like, let's see what this is. And then we get some shit happen that I think we're now on the other side of like, okay, let's see what happens. We're here, we're here to hold space for those that want to learn the philosophy of yoga, that want to learn the truth of who you are, the truth of who I am, want to feel into that interconnectedness. But it, it really just has been incredibly interesting to observe what's happening in the yoga industry space because it is… yeah. It's just, it is very interesting, very interesting to observe.
Kendra Coupland (1:06:52):
I will also say that like, I'm in a position where I've never been in the yoga “industry.” Like I went from like a student practitioner to like, I went to India to study because I just wanted to know for myself. And I never had intentions of becoming a teacher, but then I did like my 200, my 500 or my thousand hours. And you get to a place where you're like, “Okay, now I have to start to share the knowledge because I'm just being…” [Laugh] Like, this knowledge wasn't meant for just me. Right? And also, I can't get liberated if everybody else around me is oppressing me [Laugh] So, I'll have to bring them along for this ride. You know? And that's kind of part of what like led to me like teaching. But yeah. Oh my gosh, I've just lost my train of thought completely.
I guess it's just like I have the privilege of not being within the industry. I've never, like, I've never depended on yoga work, work to like sustain, sustain myself. So, I've never had to sacrifice the integrity of the practice in order to like survive. And that's a privilege within itself. You know, I've always had other work that I can depend on. Yeah. So, it's, tricky stuff. It's like we are, like you said, you know, flawed, infallible humans. Like we're going to be messy as we unpack this whole thing. And as we learn these same teachings over and over and over again and like try to reapply them in the context of this new world that we're living in, you know, like these, these practices weren't written at the time of the internet. So [Laugh], you know it's a very different world we're living in from the time that like, you know, the Rig Veda was written. So… [laugh] So, it messy as we try to understand it.
Harpinder Mann:
And I think that's a really key point that you also brought up that one of my teachers has brought up is, don't lose the integrity of yourself, of this practice of teaching yoga to make money. A teacher is like, if, if you feel like you're going to lose your integrity, you need to do something to sell yoga, go get a job. Go pick up a part-time job, go pick up a full-time job, whatever you need to do. But don't do it at the expense of watering down, diluting this practice or yourself. And I think that's really key to understand. Because I see a lot of people that have practiced a class or two and they're like, “Okay, I'm going to become a yoga teacher now. This is my full-time career!” I'm like, “Let's slow down, maybe.”
Kendra Coupland:
I know a lot of people who like, were like pivoting during the pandemic who were like, “I'm just going to take a, a yoga teacher training and teach online!” [Laugh] like, like as a career pivot. They've like not really ever even practiced. They just were like, oh, that's a new job I can do online to make money. Well, I'm like locked out or I can't go to work. And I was like, whew, all pump the brakes. [Laugh]
Harpinder Mann:
And that is what is happening in the modern yoga and the yoga industry space where people are becoming teachers first and then they realize, wait, I need to be a student. I don't actually know anything And it's… yeah. I, I think that's where capitalism really like, infects all of us and we, and everything becomes something that we can commodify and make a profit off of and sell. But yeah, it's really interesting. I've had some conversations where I'm just like standing there like, “…Ooh…”
Kendra Coupland:
[Laugh] Just observe.
Harpinder Mann”
Just observe. Right? I'm like, no judgment. I'm like, no judgment, no critique. And the part of me is like, I'm like, “Duh duh duh duh duh”
Kendra Coupland:
“I'm hearing that too. I'm observing the critiques. Got it all, watching it all.” [Laugh]
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. No, it so thanks you so much for bringing that point though. Because I, I think it makes a difference. I think it makes a difference when we're not reliant on something to make us money, then there's more integrity around it. And I think bringing that integrity back to yoga is important, is important. So, we're not diluting it and changing it and just becoming these like service providers. “Well, my student wants that, so like, I have to teach it that way.” And it's like, well, that's not the way this practice is meant to be. That's a, that's a really good point. Last question I had for you as we, as we start to wrap up and we've been covering this in, in different ways, but what changes or change do you wish to see in modern yoga?
Kendra Coupland:
I mean… so Sri Aurobindo said, “The whole world yearns after freedom, yet each creature is in love with his chains. This is the first paradox and inextricable knot of our nature.” And so, for me, like one of the things that I hope to do in my teaching is to like bring light to that knot. To that paradox, you know. I want to be like a disruptor. [Laugh] I very much again, you know, to like the yoga pantheon and being a, a tantric practitioner very much has done a lot of work around deity practice. And my first like connection with any deity was like with Kali [laugh], you know, I was like, she is not fucking around!
Harpinder Mann:
Absolutely.
Kendra Coupland:
Like, she's like, “Tear the bandied off. We ain’t got time!” And I was like, all about that energy. So, I do carry a little bit of that in my practice. And when I was given my yogic name, which is Durga Putri, it's like daughter of Durga, right? So [laugh], I do have like a bit of that kind of like battleax energy [laugh] in my practice. And I, I think I would like to see more of that because I feel like the industry is like so soft and fluffy and like, nobody wants to do the hard work, you know? Like get in there and dig, like, you know! Like go deeply into yourself, even if it's uncomfortable, go and be in that dark tunnel. It's a tunnel. It's not a bottomless pit. Go and be in the darkness and you'll be amazed what you'll find in there. You know?
I feel like yoga is like the OG disruptor. [Laugh] And, and I think it's always challenged our ideas of self, of identity, of society, of culture of ways of being. And you know, I feel like if people understood that aspect of yoga, then they might have a stronger determination when it came to like maintaining their practice. If they're like, “Oh, actually this practice has a capacity to like, liberate rather than like, give me tight abs and a sweet butt.” Like, it would be easy. I, I feel like way more like, oh, I want to do this work. This work is important. Coming to understand myself in the deepest way and then by thereby being able to extend understanding and compassion to others is, is really essential work for this time that we're living in. But I think like, people look at yoga as like something to help them relax or be healthy or strong. It does all of those things, but it also has a power to disrupt systems of oppression. And so, I would like to see more attention put on that aspect of it. Even if it's like [laugh], maybe a little harsh or like fierce. Yeah. Maybe more of a fierce practice. We need more like warrior hearts.
Harpinder Mann:
Hmmmm. I mean, I've been just nodding my head the entire interview, but especially that, that last piece around bringing that fierceness, that sense of being like an actual warrior into our practice just really hit home for me. Because Yoga was never meant to be like a pacifying practice. It was never meant to be just like a, okay, well I guess this is what it is and that's okay. I'm just going to smile and be happy with it. Let me just relax my way through life. And it's like, that's not what it was meant to be. And it, it saddens me that that's what people think it is. Where it's just like, okay, I'm just going to, I need to find a way to just relax. It's like, no, this is a disruptive practice. This is a way to end things that cause oppression, that cause us suffering. And that that really gets misconstrued, misplaced, misunderstood, completely erased. So, I'm just so grateful that you brought it up.
Kendra Coupland:
Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you there. I was just going to say the other thing is like, it's subtle. I think, and like when we live in this world, we're like expecting instant gratification and we have like a very masculine kind of approach to things we don't recognize, like, what is feminine and subtle as like getting to the root and being as disruptive as it actually is. So, I just want to offer that too, that like, again, this, you're not going to come to the mat one hour a week and like, “Oh, I'm the great disruptor!” That's not how it works. But you can begin by disrupting the, your own thought patterns. By simply observing and being like, oh, where did that thought come from? Like, when I'm, when I'm in this posture and I'm like, oh, I'm not, I can't not have any flexibility anymore. I suck at this. Like, and then you pause and you're like, hold on. Was that thought from me? Or like, where did that thought come from? Right. What, and you begin to observe, then you begin to disrupt from within, the programming, right? And when that becomes disrupted, the way you walk through the world is disruptive.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. I just completely agree with you there. And this is something we were talking about before I hit record where capitalism, hustle, culture, colonialism, white supremacy, they all have their own narratives and things and programs that in obvious ways and insidious ways gets programmed into us. And it can show up with a sense of like, I need to work all the time. I can't rest. It can show up in, you're driving through traffic, cutting people off because You got to get to where you're going as quick as you can. And it's like, how do we use these practices to notice that, notice what type of beliefs you're carrying, the programming you're caring to disrupt those things. And one of my teachers talks about we learn to unlearn. You learn unlearn, unlearn, learn, unlearn. And I think there's just so much unlearning that we all have to do. Because We've collectively been grown up a certain way. And I, the way I've been conditioned is not serving me, it's not serving me, it's not serving others. So how do we, how do we disrupt that? And I'm, I'm so glad that you brought that up.
Kendra Coupland:
Yeah.
Harpinder Mann:
Yeah. Awesome. Well thank you so much Kendra, for your time, your wisdom. I'm just walking away feeling inspired and alive and grateful for you, for your teachings. These teachings also that come from teachers before us. For those that would be wanting to learn more from you, where can they find you?
Kendra Coupland:
They can find me on my website, which is my name, so KendraCoupland.com. You could find me through social media. It's @KendraCoupland on all the different social medias. And if you want to come practice with me, then I teach at The Gathering Place on Mondays and Fridays at 11:00 AM and I'll be starting a new evening meditation on Thursday nights at 6:30 PM. And it'll be practices of like yoga nidra and self-observation and all sorts of different mindfulness, different, like dipping our toe into many different practices. So yeah, if you want to practice in person, I would love to have you there.
Harpinder Mann:
Awesome. And you're in Vancouver, yes?
Kendra Coupland:
Yeah, in Vancouver at The Gathering Place Community Center.
Harpinder Mann:
Okay. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Kendra. Thank you everybody for tuning in. I will see you all for the next one. Bye.
Kendra Coupland:
Thank you.